Ive started learning razz lately and was wondering if its ever right to bluff on 7th street, are people ever going to be folding enough there? Or should i just give up rivers when i miss, which seems pretty exploitable.

This hand was right at the start of the session i had no notes but villain was possibly a reg as he had supernova badge.

Poker Stars $3/$6 Limit Razz $0.25 Ante - 8 players
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

3rd Street: (0.667 SB)
Seat 1: xx xx 9____Seat 1 folds
Seat 2: xx xx 4____Seat 2 folds
Seat 3: xx xx 7____Seat 3 completes____Seat 3 calls
Seat 4: xx xx 5____Seat 4 calls____Seat 4 calls
Seat 5: xx xx 5____Seat 5 raises
Seat 6: xx xx K____Seat 6 brings in for $1____Seat 6 folds
Seat 7: xx xx 8____Seat 7 folds
Hero: 3 6 A___Hero calls___Hero calls

4th Street: (9 SB) (4 players)
Seat 3: xx xx 7 J____Seat 3 checks
Seat 4: xx xx 5 9____Seat 4 checks
Seat 5: xx xx 5 7____Seat 5 checks
Hero: 3 6 A 6___Hero checks

5th Street: (4.5 BB) (4 players)
Seat 3: xx xx 7 J 9____Seat 3 folds
Seat 4: xx xx 5 9 T____Seat 4 folds
Seat 5: xx xx 5 7 9____Seat 5 calls
Hero: 3 6 A 6 4___Hero bets

6th Street: (6.5 BB) (2 players)
Seat 5: xx xx 5 7 9 8____Seat 5 checks____Seat 5 calls
Hero: 3 6 A 6 4 J___Hero bets

7th Street: (8.5 BB) (2 players)
Seat 5: xx xx 5 7 9 8 xx____Seat 5 checks____Seat 5 calls
Hero: 3 6 A 6 4 J K___Hero bets

With that board, if villain is calling 6th he is 100% calling 7th.

I didn't look, but leave your results out next time.

Complete 3rd. If you limp, 3bet when it comes back to you to drive out the xx7 if possible.

Checking 4th means that either you paired, have a bad down card, or were going for a check-raise. People are mostly going to believe you have bad cards as opposed to whiffing the CR because both of the aggressors bricked and you can't expect them to bet.

There's a pretty good chance that seat 5 has a made 9 or better. He's probably not going to fold it.

There are spots to bluff in razz - this is not one of them. Almost all opponents will call with a made 8 under nearly any circumstances heads up, and given the action in this hand, I expect most will call with a 9 heads up also.

Well, it's a but of a difficult sell when you limp in and check 4th so Mr. Supernova believes you started weak and then paired.

Yes, sometimes you can bluff the river. But like any other game, you have to play quite a lot to learn how everything works so you know when to do that. I would have called you here with any T or better. Or probably a really dynamite J hi. Of course, I would have raised you on 6th, too.

+1.

It is definitely worth bluffing the river, but only in some very specific circumstances. This is not one of them, and betting here when checked to is basically setting money on fire.

In this hand, there is no practical difference in showdown value for Villain whether he holds an 8-7 or a 9-8. If Villain has been paying attention, all of the 9s are gone, so Hero here can never show up with a 9 low. Given that fact, Villain has essentially the same showdown equity with an 8-7 or a 9-8.

well now that would be dumb

Either OP is making a ridiculously risky slowplay on 4th or by 6th he's just way behind. Raising a newbie here is a good play because they are still drawing and will call (while they'll fold the river when they don't hit) or get themselves all tilted because you dared raise them and jam 6th when you are way ahead.

Or OP has 87 in the hole, which does actually fit the way the played the hand. Well, I wouldn't play 87 in the hole that way, but it actually fits pretty well for a "newbie" as you put it.

In fact, once all of the 9s are exposed on 5th street, if I was Villain in this hand, I'm probably tentatively putting Hero on 87 in the hole when he comes out betting on 5th.

So, what did you put him on, on 4th when he checked into four players and two bricks? Even a newbie at this level has to know enough general poker theory to understand his chance is better against fewer players.

Yeah I'm just speaking in general principles - that is, most people will always call down with an 8, and many will nearly always call HU with a 9.

Failed check/raise is one possibility. Who really thinks it is likely that Seat 5 checks here closing the action?


Not having 25% equity in a four-way pot is another:

ProPokerTools Razz Simulation

600,000 trials (Randomized)

dead cards: 94K8

Hand	Pot equity	Wins	Ties
87A6	22.64%	134,859	1,989
(6-6-)7J	14.60%	86,378	2,449
(8-8-5)9	16.39%	97,647	1,368
(7-7-5)7	46.37%	276,323	3,785

Although I wouldn't expect a newbie to know that he could be under 25% equity, I would expect him to know that 876A is the roughest of drawing hands, and is a pretty decent dog to a smooth four card 7, which is what Seat 5 is representing (right up until he checks).

That's the way a lot of folks would play this hand, but look at the dead cards. This hand is most emphatically not as strong as it looks on 3rd street. All of his pair cards are still unseen and a whole bunch of the cards needed to make a hand are already gone. And by building a big pot, you obviously make it much more likely that you'll need to showdown a winner.


I'm not saying I'd personally limp this hand in EP, but taking it easy with this hand on 3rd street is not a bad way to play it. Catch another wheel card on 4th and you can go bat**** crazy though...

I'm not trying to build a big pot, I'm trying to narrow the opposition. If we can get the guy with xx7 to complete/fold, that's great. Our hand is strong enough to not be too upset if we end up having to play it 3 ways, and I think if xx7 calls we can pretty sure he doesn't have an 8 or worse down.

Anyway, I'm not advocating a limp-rereaise, I think we should complete coming in. If we somehow misclicked-call then I think we should 3bet 3rd.

I actually, like the limp/call on 3rd. Think you have to be out on 4th though with two players showing bricks. Once you play it so slow though, it is going to be hard to bluff, and I don't think he ever folds in this situation.

+1. A lot of good posts itt, but I quoted this one since lis is like the "newbie whisperer". Welcome to the forum OP, and glad you have the brains (and balls) to post your hand. Bluffing in razz is similar to bluffing in other games in that you have to make your opponent believe that you have him beat often enough that's it's not worth calling you. It's a lot harder in limit games, especially ones with 5 betting rounds, to get a fold on the river tho because villain is getting such big pot odds. So you have to have a line that tells a convincing story, and sometimes that doesn't even work. If you find some villains who never fold, or a spot like this one where they make it clear by calling 6th that they're gonna call 7th too, you just have to exploit them by only v-betting.

I should have posted the hand, he was last to act.

4th Street: (9 SB) (4 players)
Seat 3: xx xx 7 J____Seat 3 checks
Seat 4: xx xx 5 9____Seat 4 checks
Seat 5: xx xx 5 7____Seat 5 checks
Hero: 3 6 A 6___Hero checks

I would suspect Seat 5 of checking with four good with the intention of raising if either of the bricks called, presuming that OP would bet. But in almost all cases, OP is only checking behind this board is if he paired or is bricking, himself.

Now this is interesting to me, because I know you are an excellent player and I'd never limp here. To me, the hand is not strong enough to limp for deception, too strong to fold, but with no board support, I don't want to appear weak, so I want to at least try to get marginal hands out and get some fold equity. So I'd always complete.

So I'd like for everyone to hear why a limp makes sense to you here, because I'm sure there are good reasons behind that choice, also.

Wat

I believe she's referring to xx57 - that guy should never be checking behind 4 low cards.

I think most of the other comments regarding check-raising were referring to OP, who *potentially* could have been going for a check-raise but missed his chance. As I mentioned before, though, check-raising wouldn't be the best play there with 4 low cards because the preflop aggressors both bricked. xx57 might bet often enough to make it worth it, but if he's going to bet, he'll probably raise if you lead and the 2 other guys call.

You're mistaken on that... The guy who raised the completion preflop caught a 7. It paired him, but there's no way anybody else knew it was a brick for him...

OK I got the 2 guys with a 5 up mixed up. So that makes hero having a whiffed check-raise a lot more likely.

Don't we act first on 4th? When seat 5 checks in position, it looks incredibly weak.

I limp a lot, so not suprising I think the limp/call is OK. I think it is OK to limp because you are in early position. You don't want to play for 2 full bets, which might happen if you raise. Also, you can fold to 2 or more full bets after having just called the bringin.

Appearing weak is not good here in many scenarios for later streets, but you do have deception if you catch good and your hand is underrepresented.

Dam - I was reading it as if OP acted last. Thanks. Yup, it could be a missed check/raise.