Razz ($1/$2), Ante $0.10, Bring-In $0.50 (converter)

3rd Street - (0.80 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx T___folds
Seat 2: xx xx 4___calls
Seat 3: xx xx 8___raises
Seat 4: xx xx 6___folds
Seat 5: xx xx 2___folds
Hero: 3 5 A___ ACTION?
Seat 7: xx xx J___
Seat 8: xx xx K___[brings in]

I know the answer here is a raise. I'm always hesitant though. At this level no one is folding to the extra bet that called the bring in. So I know there will be 2 coming along with me if I raise.. I like getting my money in when its not such a crapshoot.

I think the issue is am I trying to save money or win money.. Saving money calls, winning money raises.

And thanks to all that commented on my last hand from a few weeks ago.. It was great stuff.

Saving money is money you have lost by not making it, if these limits are too high for you that you feel uncomfortable about raising in these spots you should drop down.

You can never be sure that seat 2 will call two raises here, and if he does, it's not horrible, he probably has an 8 or worse and you are up agaisnt two pretty lousy hands. The one problem about this hand is that it's not that live, but it makes up for it with the other people being in with rough hands. Just calling here is too weak, you want too see two cards with this hand most of the time, raise.

Thats not the issue. I could play at $3/$6 and still stay within the magical 5% limit that some people talk about.. It's got nothing to do with being uncomfortable. I'd play the same at a .10/.20 table.
The save money/make money language was used by a regular to these boards in another post regarding whether it was correct to raise in a particular situation and it seemed apt for this question.

To the actual substance of your comment.. I've been playing razz fairly regularly for about 3 weeks. 1/2 and 2/4 Not a single time have I seen someone who called the bring in fold to 2 bets. Not once. While not a huge sample of data, its enough to understand the play to expect. So, sure I can't know for sure.. but I can make the play under the very correct assumption that 99.5% of the time at these limits I will have two callers.

Fair enough, but you still need to raise imo. As I said the limper nearly always has a very marginal hand here, so you want to punish him, and who knows he MIGHT fold (and whatever the action, note him and say he limps then calls two raises).

You should love getting your money in with a three-card bike when someone has a big stinky Eight in the door. If someone folds, great. If no one folds, great. Nothing bad can happen if you raise here.

In terms of EV, you can't go wrong raising here. In terms of meta-game, mix in a few calls for deception, but stick to value at this limit. Raising may fold out the 4 and if he raises your bet, then you are either getting dead money from the 8 if it folds or +EV if he calls.

Save "meta-game" for, I dunno, something other than $1/2.

Yes, that's what I meant when I said "stick to value at this limit."

Or did you not mean to sound like a smart ass?

Great way to go broke in Razz. Here's an oldie but a goodie.

The only reason not to complete here is for deception and your hand isn't that good, you need all the fold equity possible. And if you are this worried about saving a dollar at 1/2, then you need to drop down a limit or two.

It's not a question of completing, its do I make it two bets. The hand you pointed me to doesn't apply, as the bring in on this hand is folding to the completed bet that's already been made. I can make it two bets here, but whether its one or two bets I will have two players coming along.

Just to point out: I typically do make the raise here.. Because I know it's the 'right' play. I just do it begrudgingly as I feel confident I'm going to brick.

If you have "feel" that something is going too happen in poker so you don't make the correct play, you have more important aspects of your game to work on then whether to play a big pot on 3rd.

Raising and getting the limper and 8 to call you is a great result.

There is some value in keeping a pot small to take advantage of a skill advantage later. Also, flat calling disguises your hand. However, here there is huge value in raising, which is much more important.

You are playing 3-way, so at some point you may fold if things don't go right, but I don't see the problem with building the pot now.

I'm with betgo. You have an edge over both opponents now that may disappear or become so dominating that your opponents won't put any money in on a later street, so get the money in now. You're good enough to get out of the pot if it goes South, but your opponents may not be, and you want them to chase their money.

I did mis-read this. So, now it is pretty mandatory to raise with your dead but good hand. 1st, you need to know if the limper is being deceitful or is bricking, a flat-out brick will fold to your raise at least 60% of the time at this limit. The 8's going to call, so good, you have information advantage and know you will see 5th regardless of the outcome on 4th.

Of course you are going to brick - who makes their hand on perfect/perfect 4ths and 5ths? He's going to brick, also. If you feel like you are just not getting hands that pay-off at this table, get off it. If you feel this way all the time, get past it.

Oh yeah - and the link was to generally address the issue of trying to "save money" by not putting in money on 3rd street. You don't bet 3rd for value almost ever - you bet for information and image. Sometimes to get a fold.

I'm not sure what about the internet brings out this sort of response.

I didn't say that my 'feel' caused me not to make the correct play. If you'll reread what I wrote you'll see that what I actually said was: despite my 'feel' I still make the correct play. So, while psychologically I may not have convinced myself that I'm doing the right thing, I have enough poker knowledge to ignore my own psychological shortcomings and do what is correct.

Which, I would suspect, isn't a bad thing in poker. Recognize that your emotion is creating a hole in your game, and learn to ignore that emotion.

I could be wrong. Maybe its bad.

I'm sorry if my post offended and if I misinterpreted your post.
Good work on the emotion front.

I think you're confusing emotion with intuition. Your poker intuition is made up of all sorts of factors besides emotion, from things you've experienced, things you've read, things you've heard, feeling lucky or unlucky, your own reasoning about this spot, etc. Being able to sort out all the factors in your intuition and smack down the ones that hurt your game is a big part of becoming a consistent winner.