Hi everyone, first post of long time lurker (nlhe thou)

I recently started playing razz on lowest limits (no foldem it seems), and i find it absolutely confusing at times
I have a question about 3rd street raising, is it good idea to reraise or cap with premium hands? Because so far i've seen such big variance, plus (by my "logic" at least) opponent will then almost allways have the right odds to call on later streets.
This is most confusing razz thing for me. It's like three lowest cards make nothing at 3rd street, but on other hand it's also a mistake not to bet or raise when holding better hand (or am I wrong?)
Wouldn't it be better to either bet once and call a reraise or just check-call on 3rd and 4th street (except when opponent is holding junk) and then start betting, so they actually make a mistake when calling with incorect pot odds?

Another question is about literature, so far i've only found and read few pages about razz in old Super system and Hellmuths book, is there any other book or good beginners article on razz?

ps. Sorry for my english... hope someone understands what i wanted to say

Buy and read "Sklansky on Razz"

Thanks mate, book's on its way already... I totally forgot about good ole David

In the meanwhile, what do you think about small and microstakes razz ring games on PS? Is it still worth it after rakes and small edges? or is it just better to sharpen those skills and use them in the mix game tourneys? Cause I played some HORSE tourneys with few dollars buy-in the other day, it was like, I don't really have a clue..but most of opponents had have even less clue than me...

Allow me to paraphrase Sklansky's advice on beating loose players: Such idiots are rare, but if you happen upon such an unicorn anyone with half a brain can beat them.

It sounds like OP's experience is different, and he's typically playing at a table full of really loose players. While he seems to be playing the typical TAG style, he is wondering how to maximize his edge in such games. This is actually a pretty complicated question, and hopefully some experienced razz players will weigh in on the subject. As for me, I might do something even better than that.

I don't know, maybe I was just running bad, but it's like one of those 3 or 4 players in the pot will almost always get lucky on 6th and 7th, but yeah when that doesn't happen, the profit is quite nice... Maybe I should try going easy on the 3rd, so more or less whole table joins the game and just playing multi way and wait for the nuts.
Oh well few more days and Davids book will be here... I'll surely feel stupid reading my questions again

Knowing the rules will give you a HUGE edge in most low stakes HORSE/mixed game tourney's....

in very loose razz games you can do better by not raising and being able to get away from hands early on rather than locking yourself in to fifth street or more.
tend to raise with your premium LIVE hands when they are coming with larger cards up like eights and nines where you can really punish them..

With all due respect Ray, if you're saying that it's better not to raise 3rd when loose players come in calling with a low card showing then I have to disagree. That's because in a loose game your opponents will have very wide ranges of hole cards in those spots (and usually not premium hands) and your edge on 3rd st can be pretty big, especially if one of the opponents has a hand good enough to open or raise back at you with.

When you play multiway pots, you don't have to win the majority of the hands to make a very tidy profit. In a 4 way pot, even if you lose 60% of the time it still amounts to a very big edge!

As I said, there is a lot to this question so in order to give a more complete answer (and back it up with some math) I wrote an article on it for the 2p2 magazine. It should be in the April edition.

generally if they are just coming in with a low card then their hands arent too wide. so it can be better to not build the pot on third where you have to play on where they will play on if they bust on third when the pot is too small.

if they are playing eights and nines then pushing early on is important.

plus if you only jam them with great hands on third they get to read you well. and if you vary much you are playing like them. the edge isnt as good as it may seem on third.

however there is nothing wrong with jamming with the best hand. no argument.

I guess what it boils down to is what kind of ranges are the opponents playing. If they play 8s or 9s up (or worse) then it's obvious how loose they are, but a lot of loose opponents will come in with lots of mediocre hands with a low card in the door. Example: (J2)A or (97)3. If they're truly loose, some of these hands have to be in their range, they just won't be dealt 7s or better or (85)4 kind of hands very often.

Ray,

At low stakes online players will happily call with any 2 low cards, period. In a multiway pot you will often have a very good edge. I have talked to people that think that having a small pair is good, i.e. that "225" is a "pretty good hand." I think it's possible you've never seen games as loose as the lowest limits online.

In these huge multiway pots you have to become good at folding when you have to. And in HU pots you have to get used to continuing past when you "ought" to.

of course when they play that loose you push all your edges to the max. but you still have to watch yourself getting inb too far as you cant tell what they have if you are pushing with them having wheel cards up. and you do get run off when you brick and two make two low on board. in these type spots you have forced yourself to lose more.

many times you can easily get back what you gave up in action on third later in the hand with those calling drawing dead or almost.

Confirmed. If anyone here bothers to read it, I'd love some feedback (especially from Ray)

not up on the site yet.....maybe it's not yet April 1st in Vegas!!

For a couple of players I could name - even at 0.25/0.5 J2/A would be a monster....

OP - it can get monstrously frustrating in the multi-way pots...but when you win a couple of huge pots you'll feel a lot better...

It's not always up on the 1st of the month, but it's up now

Indeed it is - have only skimmed it as am shattered at end of term....will have a better look later...

okay. you will vary whether you raise or reraise on third. lots of considerations that come into play. if you are a machine type player that just plays straight forward take your edge and jam. nothing wrong with that.

but if you have imagination and can outplay others on later streets you may want to delay your betting till then. that may bring in players that would fold to your raise or the jam that comes around to them. those having a paint in the hole my call too much but do they stand jams on third. if they do how long before you clam them up? if never then jam them.

also you run into getting jammed out if you brick on 4th and have reraised going in on third. thats a big penalty to pay when if it wasnt raised you get to see another card possibly because smaller pots dont get jammed as much as there isnt much to protect and the players dont get emotionally involved in getting even with the raisers.

not raising on third gives you some reads later on as to their holdings. if they have to pay alot for third they just go until they cant play on because of the action or boards that are too scary. if cheaper on third they will justify in their minds that they have a chance with weak hands later on and will pay off your made had from 5th on as long as they have the hope.

overall you make your money in razz on the later streets when players pay off too much, draw dead, go to far with dead cards out, or dont bet or raise when they have way the best of it. these things will happen more if they arent as afraid of your hand.
all things to throw in the mix instead of just the math of a certain street.

I'm always a supporter of playing imaginatively and not automatically, and agree there is value in outplaying others on later streets. The point of my article wasn't that you should always jam on 3rd with any edge, it was that sometimes the edge is just too large to pass up. The math in the article shows what kind of value you get from jamming in a couple particular spots, and I'm open to seeing how much value you think a player can earn from the spots you're talking about as well. Maybe I'll pick one and examine it more closely for a future article.