meh... Calling the river is a spew i know.

7 Card Stud High ($0.25/$0.50), Ante $0.05, Bring-In $0.10 (converter)

3rd Street - (1.40 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx J___folds
Seat 2: xx xx J___completes___calls
Hero: 4 4 A___raises
Seat 5: xx xx 7___folds
Seat 6: xx xx 3___brings-in___folds
Seat 7: xx xx Q___folds
Seat 8: xx xx T___calls___calls

4th Street - (7.80 SB)

Seat 2: xx xx J 7___calls
Hero: 4 4 A T___bets
Seat 8: xx xx T K___calls

5th Street - (5.40 BB)

Seat 2: xx xx J 7 5___calls
Hero: 4 4 A T 2___checks___calls
Seat 8: xx xx T K Q___bets

6th Street - (8.40 BB)

Seat 2: xx xx J 7 5 6___calls
Hero: 4 4 A T 2 7___checks___calls
Seat 8: xx xx T K Q 8___bets

River - (11.40 BB)

Seat 2: xx xx J 7 5 6 xx___folds
Hero: 4 4 A T 2 7 9___checks___calls
Seat 8: xx xx T K Q 8 xx___bets

Total pot: (13.40 BB - $6.70)

Wow uhh yea. This reminds of that Ted Forrest/Chad Brown hand from the first year (I think) that ESPN showed stud in the WSOP.

Brown bet every street with A high, and Forrest just stared at him and called with a pair of 2's. Not sure if that's what you were trying to go for here lol.

That may work heads up, but not in a multiway pot where a guy bet into a potential flush and an Ace showing. I dont think you are anywhere near a 1/12 chance to win here.

yeah u need to dump this somewhere along the way, either 3rd or 5th depending on table play. by 7th you might as well call and make people think you hare a brain tumor

I really don't see any reason to put any money into this pot at any point. The "aggressive" part of tight/aggressive is the more fun part, to be sure, but I think you need to focus more on the "tight" part.

O RLY?

Check/call 'till 5th and fold if unimproved, I think that's the way to go about it. See what your hand develops into, but don't be shy about folding.

Please, sir, no O RLY, and no FYP. Thanks.

You very conveniently gave the other guys dead hands. I also think that ceegee will wind up with more than two opponents a significant percentage of the time, and that is not good news for this hand. These showdown equities are of the greatest value when you are seeing the showdown most of the time. How committed are you to a pair of Fours? Also, ceegee is apt to be out of position for the whole hand.

Are you saying that you think ceegee generally shows an appropriate level of aggression?

I know it's childish, but we could stand to loosen up a little in the stud forum, don't you think? (pun intended).

I gave the other guys hands I expect them to have. It's possible they are slightly better, or could be that Seat 8 is limping with something like (78)T, but that doesn't change the fact that the hero will most often have statistically the best hand. Do you have a different read on the opponents' hands here? I'm not claiming a pair of 4's is the nuts, but I'm as committed to them as I have to be to get value out of a hand when I'm in front. With a suited A kicker, they are the best hand 3-ways and a virtual coin flip if he is able to isolate seat 2. With two bets cold facing seat 5, and two bets slightly chilled facing the bring-in, I don't think you have to worry about more opponents here very often.

How would you play a split pair of Q's in this spot? I suspect you'd raise here about 100% of the time. Well they have just slightly more showdown equity than hero's hand in a 3-way pot, and they will also be out of position most of the time (which I agree is a disadvantage). Plus, they're much more easily read than hero's hand (assuming anyone at 0.25/0.50 actually pays attention to anyone else's hand) and the deception value of hero's hand may trap an opponent when he makes a big hand or buy him a free card on a big bet street.

Hero: 4 4 A___raises

heres the leak! you raise this after a call then a complete???

It's a good move to get it HU which was my goal with a hand like this. Read 7CSFA. [/andy]

SG

Split Qs with a live kicker is far more valuable than 44A. He hits an Ace, the hand is over. In other words, Qs will generate bigger pots unless OP spikes a four. Taking position into account, its even worse. Maybe you meant 4A4 vs QxQ. If so, then thats different.

The idea that its a "good move" to RR on 3rd, implies there is a "bad move". I don't see a "bad move" here. In addition, "my leak" implies one leak. (No comment).

"Read 7CSFA." Page # and para, please. This should be good.

"{/andy}" I think Andrew is saying fold or call, not R on 3rd.

I like the "brain tumor" thing. PL, are you saying ceegee has a brain tumor?????? Not very nice.

....
First off
In playing small and medium pairs,
"The two most important actors are the size of your kicker and whether your cards are live. So how high does your kicker need to be? The answer is that it should be higher than any card on the board" (Sklansky 40).

"Also be more inclined to raise if you feel that this will get you heads-up. in addition, you should frequently reraise higher upcards.This is correct if you can get it heads-up, your cards are live, one of their upcards is gone or there is some chance they don't have what they are representing" (Sklanskyl 40).

So far not only do I have all live cards, one of his door cards is out, but I have an ace kicker and I also have a two flush which plays better in a multiway pot just incase I get more callers.
With the ace up, this allows me to represent aces here increasing my potential to thin the field by reraising here. It's 2 bets to the guy with the ten who is likely to fold when it's two bets back. I then am able to accomplish HU and in a tighter game like the one I am in this is considered a "Good" play.

My "leak" i was referring to was regarding the fact that I took this hand past 5th. Playing small pairs in a multi way pot when not improving past 5 is probably my leak.

It also says in the text that this is less true when you have a small hidden pair with an A or K showing because you are essentially forced to rep split aces or kings and that you will often end up leading every street. I do think its often correct early to try to rep these hands, but if its clear by 5th nobody is buying it and you actually have a crappy unimproved baby pair, you need to often put on the breaks.

Yes I'm aware. Like I said I should have folded 5th.

No, but the only valid reasons to call the river are to make people think you have a brain tumor, which is good for meta-game purposes, and to pay to see what beat your 4s....though there is no need for meta-game purposes at these stakes; most people probably dont even look at the HH to see that the other person is a nut that raised and called all the way with bare 4s.

No I mean (44)A. When does the hand end with (Qx)Q? When you hit an open pair? Another split pair? Miss on the river and have naked Q's? You have 3 outs to make 2 split pair, and what about opponents who will give you credit for Q's up there but still think they are drawing live vs. (xx)A3A because it's so common to bully with an A up? If the hand is over with (xx)A3A, then what about with (xx)A77? Hero is crushing the game if he can take it down with that. Also there are 3 aces to spike, and two other 4's -- not a huge difference.

Not saying expert opponents are going to be fooled, but how many of them are lurking at 0.25/0.50? At least with hero's hand he can save a bet on the river when he never improves. Oh wait...

Re: Bah, I've seem to found my leak...


i think you meant to say...

Bah, I've seem to found my broken pipe...

Problem is this is a .25/.50 game. You will never get any one off a 3rd street drawing hand at that level

Ceegee

Just what I thought. This game is 25 cents/fifty cents not 15/30. Have you ever played 15/30? If you think they are the same, GOD BLESS. But the small limit section covers this type of hand and I'm postive you read this area. Over and over I'll bet. You could take any position, at any limit, on any hand and find something to CYA in that book. But the first couple of pages of that section covers this type of low limit action. And you know it. And thats the real leak. Its impossible to play "knock-out" stud at these levels.

SG

"If the hand is over with (xx)A3A, then what about with (xx)A77?" Apples and oranges.

Its (xx)A77 vs (xx)Q77. The chasers will continue against the Q, more times than not, thus making it more valuable. And the chasers pay the rent. But maybe I missed your point because the "O RLY" comment concerned tight vs/and agressiveness. I'm sorry if I missed it but whatever. 44A is a problem hand which requires you to pick and chose your battles carefully. Not so with the Qs. Someday i'll go over and kick your azz at Razz and show you how it's done. Nickle/dime right.

There is no right move, wrong one, good one, bad one or whatever. You could make a legit case for folding or calling at this level. The worse choice is R. After a 2nd jack completes, you should be thinking "welllllllllllllllllllllll lets see a card, what the hell". But in a 15/30 game it's fold or R, no calls. This knocks out the 10, more times than not. And if he doesn't fold, now we have a position problem. You better catch a card on 4th, because you're playing the board, not your hand. Playing the board expertly, at 15/30, is a MUST. Not so at the lower levels, you play decent cards cheaply and build pots with solid hands (its only the whole 21st Century edition concept). Getting "cute" at 25 cents is that "brain tumor" thing. RAZZ here I come.

Yes I understand playing in a loose game therefore it's wrong, but I still like the play. Maybe I should just play at 15/30 then imo

So when hero has split QQ, makes (xx)Q77, he will get chased down by unimproved JJ and TT? That is indeed value town. I don't think these same stations are going to muck vs. (xx)A3A, but if you have seen some call in one case and not the other then I defer to your experience. I'm not saying this is a dream hand, or that it doesn't present tricky situations. But when a hand is best out of 3 equity-wise in a 3-way pot, and the villains' hands are pretty transparent, saying it's a major leak to jam with it or play it at all is going overboard.

My azz is usually available for all attempted kickings.

Players always lay down to XXA3A, no matter what the level.

I noticed that Razz players have a 3rd street equity concept, or what another razzman referred to as "fair value" on 3rd. This concept will get you killed in stud. Just Killed. Your VPIP will be off the charts. The reason is that an unimproved 3rd street hand does win, on a regular basis, in stud. Not so in Razz, everyone needs two cards. Unimproved PPs win quite a bit; unimproved 4s LOL. So Razz seems like a "flip of a coin" type of game vs stud. I know thats inaccurate but it just seems that way. A 52 card deck with 20 Jokers; get a Joker on 3rd or 4th and you're dead. Not so with stud.

Emphasis mine.

You will note that they have this first, and I think that it is by far the most important factor to consider. All pairs, be they (AA)K or (72)2, play better when heads-up. This is especially true when you're playing catch-up.