Awesome, was hoping to see them start that up!

I get that, but it's not like Hideaway had table games or slots. The question was aimed specifically to your room, what changed?

I agree with all of above.

Which begs the question, why did you propose the change?

I think many of us reading this thread understand most of this, but it still doesn't really answer the motive behind your proposal.

All I gather from your long post is that the game is dying and house must rake more to sustain itself, or it dies, but you also agree that it would accelerate the process of cannibalization of player base.

Again I ask, is this the last ditch effort to cash in before closing out?

Oops, for whatever reason, I thought larswheels is owner of Hideaway...

Silly me, never mind what I wrote!

Yeah that was lol. However you could ask some questions to the owner based on what was written. Still feel like it didn't even say anything.

That might or might not make sense depending on hundreds of parameters. See, for example, basic economic models of how monopolists determine price (and hence output). You may be assuming models of perfectly competitive markets apply to poker economics. They don't AINEC.

Anyway, speaking for myself (not the house), the other players I want in the game are generally the ones who don't much care whether the rake caps at $3 or to $5. Their poor play is generally worth $2 a pot.

In another state I used to play in a 5/10 FK O8 game with 10% to $6 (no jackpot) that I slaughtered.

That game is a jewel. Many of the 15 O8 players don't want to come north to play it because they think 5-card O8 is a crapshoot. I'm good with that.

It is just limit 6-12 right? I think if it was pot limit more people would come up there. So much action at Fortune right now and if the bigger game runs its closer to Muckleshoot.

Do you need to get on the list beforehand to secure a seat in thr hideaway big O game? I assume it runs one table?

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6/12 kill to 10/20.

Sure, if you're good at O8 you'd make money much faster in PLBO8, and still with the reduced variance of a split pot game.... for as long as the games go, which in most locales isn't long.

Maybe Seattle is an exception. Has the Muckleshoot gotten PL Big O8 going regularly? I thought it was de facto competing with their own 15/30 game at the Muck, before the 15 moved to Fortune.

Anyway, in our little limit game we have a cast of loose players who play the 6/12 / 10/20 and build $400 pots. They win occasionally, they lose a good bit more, and keep coming back.

Yeah, they implemented a new system and I'm not fond of it. You have to either show up in person at 9 am or call at I believe 3 pm.

Occasionally I've seen them start a second game, but usually they give a canned reply of "Yes, there are 12 people on the Big O list, and 5 each on HE and Omaha, but if we start a Big O game all the HE and Omaha players are going to leave and break those games."

Exactly my experience. Poker in Vegas is on the downswing. The native casinos did themselves a HUGE disservice getting the State to outlaw on-line poker. My question to you... since the Natives are basically walking away from their monopoly on $500 wagers....why not open this up to all poker rooms? Not a troll...honest questions. Thanks!

PS Wisepine- you will get trolled by those who just want to get a rise out of you. Hang in there and welcome!

I'm not sure I understand your question and can't speak for her, but isn't the recent increase from $100 to $300 for non-tribals a big step in that direction?

But to me this comment implies that getting access to more NL- and PL-like games would be a great thing for poker in the long run. I think it would just encourage weak players to give their money to the strong at an unsustainable rate. Are NL games good at the tribals? (Sincere question, I don't know.)

Hi Teresa,
I love playing poker Hideaway and thanks for making it a cool place over the past 8 years. I like that it's a friendly local card room.

I want Hideaway to succeed and overcome the higher labor wages, and shallow player base.

Here are my thoughts on this tough situation.

A) Keep the luck factor high enough
- We need fish to wander in, win and come back, maybe tell their friends or invite a friend. What can help with this?
Mostly just HIGHER blinds compared to the limits. Adding a third blind in your smallest games would help. 1-3 with 1 on the button. Blinds for the 100 max game could be 2/4 instead of 1/3. Or better yet, 2-4 with 2 on the button. This game would have a lot more action, pots would be bigger, and there would be more "luck".

If the state doesn't allow three blinds we need to get that rule changed. Also a rule that expressly states a straddle is OK would be important. These go hand in hand to make the games play larger and have "MORE LUCK". This is what I would go after with the state immediately in 2017.

B) Raise the stakes - to survive we needed consistently bigger pots.
Start testing a 4-40 with with 2/4 +2 on button blind structure. (once you get the third blind legalized)

C) Make the pots look bigger, with more chips on the table. Use as many $1 chips in the 3-100 game as possible. Don't break into the $5 chips. They are bad for the game. (this also applies to $5 chips in the Big O game... very bad for the game. Slows things down and looks like there are fewer chips on the table.)

D) Jackpot money should be given out in small wins (no big Jackpots, you have done GREAT with this).

E) Keep the rake low enough - rake must always be considered as a percentage of the pot. If you rake too much then player "wins" will be fewer and further between. How do I know?
Take this to the extreme and figure rake is 100% of the pot. Everyone is broke immediately. Now take a rake of 80%. Everyone is broke within just a few hands. 10% is still a HUGE rake!

The super strong 20/40 game at Fortune rakes $6 which about 3% of a typical $200 pot. This keeps a lot of money in player pockets so they come back the next day.

This shows if you want to rake more dollars per hand then Hideaway must have bigger pots to support it. A, B, C, and D will help you build bigger pots.

oh, BTW I like how you have a variety of games at the Hideaway. That's very cool and should be good for the player base.

Notsureifserious

Fortune website says 1/3 nl today, full list for hours, no tables being spread. Wtf

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I think that was the case last night too. Weird. But as of now it shows a single 1-3 game and 8 waiting.

I'm pretty wary of the effect of that game on the 20 LHE but we shall see.

I thought most of it might be, but this is a little out of hand:

First, the H is the only place I've ever seen something as big as 3-20 spread almost entirely in $1 chips. 150 or 200 chip pots are not that rare.

Second, I can't remember the last time someone put a $5 chip in the pot in the 6/12 Big O. It plays almost entirely in green ($2).

Third, it's hard to be a bigger fan of many chips on the table than me. 4-chip/8-chip is what they play in heaven. Stacking a 150 chip pot is glorious.

Fourth, it's still a horrible idea for 3-100 or higher. Stacking a 300 chip pot is absurd.




Also, the Rock in the 3-100 effectively serves as a third blind. Even better, people misplay trying to attack or defend the Rock. It's really not worth very much, probably less than $10, because you have to put it in UTG. I'm tightening way up to attack or defend the blinds when the Rock is in play, but many people keep the same ranges.

Opening to $40 on the button with 87o so you can take down $4 in unrestricted chips and the $15 piece of **** has got to be awful.

So if most players played well, the Rock would be horrible for action, but in practice it's great for action.

I only played that game once. Seemed like 3 rocks is too many.

I was there on a night with two Big O games and they ran out of green chips. Playing with the red chips was super annoying.

My point is keep a lot of chips on the table so the pots are big in size. However that makes the most sense for the game

I realize promoting a game with a third blind might be too out of the ordinary, but this is just one idea to help increase "blind" money compared to the betting limit and increase action. A rock is another idea. Of course one of the most common is kill pots. The idea is to keep the pots big on a regular basis. I think this is why the 6/12 Big O game has done well.

Five cards makes each starting hand closer in value to each other hand. Taking this concept to extremes if each hand was 1 card the equities would be hugely different. I.e. Ace vs a duece. ... If each hand was 10 cards there would be less difference between possible starters.

Anyway with five cards there is more luck. Then add a kill and it's even more of a gambling game. This is one reason the game is strong.

Ps Limit Hold'em with a 6 chip 12 chip structure > 4 chip 8 chip.

4 chip / 8 chip is only purgatory.

No doubt. I was probably there that night, or a similar night. I offered to color up to give them more green chips to sell, but instead they said they'd decided to start the second game in red, which wasn't a good idea.

But that's not policy, just an ad hoc decision. There's some bureaucratic reason Teresa says WA makes it prohibitively expensive for new chip vendors to enter the market so the H can't buy new green chips.


I agree. Kill pots are awesome. They also encourage weak opponents to play even worse--calling seven more chips (on a 10-chip kill raise) with 90% of hands because "I was already in for the big blind."

Interestingly, yes, HU hand values run slightly closer hot and cold. Multiway, a top 10% hand is slightly stronger in Big O8. Play with some simulations on PPT--10% versus four other 35% or even a couple of 80% ranges. ::cough:: Seat 4 ::cough::

Basically this is just reinforcing the glorious thing about O8: Many hands that wouldn't be a big dog HU look like they should be played but really shouldn't. And that's just H&C--postflop playability aka implied odds only exaggerates this tendency. But we should really move this to either the O8 forum or Poker Theory.

Agreed. But the extra card and H/L nature mean that many people get the good feeling of winning parts of pots, or having somewhat pretty hands that come close, but are likely to lose at the end of the night.

You makes some great points. I'll study up.

It seems like a good game for sure. It still seems slightly easier for a beginner to play than the four card version but maybe I'm missing something.

Two 1/3 runnin at fortune. Mix of people from what i can see

Edit

Table seemed iffy but i bought in for the minimum and I've tripled up

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How often is the game supposed to go?

Just got home from 3-300 at fortune.

Got there at 6:30, big list, all but 2 or 3 were in other games so we got the " we don't want to break a game to start a game " thing. Second game started around 7. Two games mostly mostly full all night

They have an odd rule that single chip higher value chip is a raise if it makes at least a half wager. for instance if you don't have dollar chips a single red is a raise if you don't say call in a limped pot. Several instances of people buying in , floor not giving them dollar chips , player flips in an intended call and was made to min raise without a warning when the dealer knew it was person's first action. One time player raised to 11, another player threw in 3 red chips and it was a raise.

I got the recommended pepper beef (3 or four pages back on here) but wasn't impressed. Anything else been good there lately?

They said they were going to try to run it everyday