You have to stop tarding up this thread. This statement in particular is complete misinformation. Time to come back to reality if you want to have a meaningful discussion with the rest of the community.

regardless of BBJP decision, down with the peach chips!

Ari and company should take a deeper look at all the failing Poker Rooms that currently have BBJs and then take onus of the post-it note with both names petitioning against the implementation of said BBJ. Perhaps then they'll reconsider this preposterous idea of adding the BBJ since it's sure to reduce Parx Poker profits.

Get a grip peoples.

Yeah. Borgata is a total failure...

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I think you missed the sarcasm tag.

If I did I plead Poe's Law.

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Been skimming through the last couples of pages...

Can someone explain why Parx management is looking to add the BBJ - as in, what motivated this? My impression was that Parx nixed it initially because of the higher rake and that business was pretty strong as it is. This looks like a move to try to bolster business. Or maybe there was a recent heavy push by players to add it?

Why would they not? It doesnt cost them anything to have it, yet it brings in more players that want to chase it, especially when its high.

I wasn’t asking whether the BBJ is a good or bad thing. But since you sort of brought it up…

There’s a large contingent of players (as well as least one major poker room manager) who dislike the BBJ overall. Imo, the sheer numbers overwhelmingly support the idea that it’s - - EV to players. As far as the standard argument “It creates action!” goes, all I’ve seen is a mix of anecdotes and conjecture. There are anecdotes and conjecture that argue against this. If there’s hard, legit evidence (such as, have pros/semi-pros had a statistically meaningful difference in long-term winrates for games without a BBJ vs. similar games with one ,etc.) please present. Of course, this is a discussion that doesn’t belong here (and has been had some other time/place in this forum) so I don’t want to derail further.

Back to Parx…

Parx clearly made a deliberate decision to exclude the BBJ. Players are understandably concerned about seeing $6/hand ($150+/hr.)- and this excludes tips - get swept off the table. To me it seems that adding it now is a major step to take, particularly for a room I thought didn’t need to draw in more players. Your reply suggests they might not be doing as well as I thought. Again, if someone knows why Parx is doing this please say so.

Why would you think Parx doesnt need to draw in more people? The don't have 100% of the market share.

Maybe its as simple as they think adding the BBJ will make the room more crowded, hence making them more money.

Maybe they are concerned about other close states getting poker i.e NY and Maryland, and losing players to these places once poker becomes legalized in those states?

Maybe the don't want to lose players to Chester and AC when those places have a BBJ?

Maybe they are appealing to the masses of recreational players and not the reg's on 2+2?

Maybe they are concerned about losing Reg's back to online poker in NJ in 10 months?


Who really cares what the exact reason they are doing it is? The bottom line is, Parx's thinks it will be more profitable for them to do it.

It's not like the player pool is getting exponentially bigger. If anything, poker is shrinking. Less poker on tv = less new players trying the game = less players playing as a hobby. With more casinos/poker rooms opening in the tri state area(NY, downtown philly, online in NJ), everyone is fighting to attract and keep players. There just isnt enough of an influx of new poker players to keep everyone happy and as profitable as they want to be. At least Parx is trying to make the best room possible for everyone(new menu, free wifi, innovative tourney structures, listening to players advice, increasing comps to 90 days, etc etc). Parx mgt understands it's gonna lose business to the new philly casino and a lot of NY/North jersey traffic. Might as well try anything now to keep the players from leaving instead of waiting until after they leave. Keeping a customer is a lot easier than attracting a new one.

Guyra is pretty much spot on.

This isn't the old days where pretty much everyone in the entire area (Philly, the philly burbs, south jersey, central jersey, new yorkers) all went to AC to play cards and the rooms were constantly busy.

During the poker boom I remember walking into the Taj and was shocked at how crowded the room was. The entire room was full and there were long lists. Then the Borgata came around and most people simply went over there - there was no reason not to. It was the same distance pretty much and it was a much nicer/better run room.

Then the Philly/Delaware poker rooms opened and EVERYTHING changed. I remember hearing how much of a hit the Borgata took. There were some underground games I went to in Philly that were pretty fun and relatively busy but they immediately closed up shop soon as Chester opened. Why play in an underground or private game when you can just drive 20 minutes and not have to worry about there being any issues?

The market changes. Things change. The customer pool may dwindle. If the BBJ will attract more customers, the bottom line is from a business standpoint it makes sense. Do you really think that a small group of butthurt 2+2 poker players who care so much about the rake/bbj drop will be the final determination of their decision? It's ridiculous.

While the odds/stats may support that argument, the fact is the vast majority of part-time or recreational players couldn't care less about 1 dollar being taken from the pot. When I win big pots I'll tip 5-10 bucks. If I win a small pot I'll tip 2 bucks. If I win just the blinds I toss a buck. Many people here would probably reprimand me for it, but I don't think about the hourly or how much it will hurt my bottom line for the end of the year - I simply don't give a crap. And most people who don't take it as seriously as the small group of people in this thread (relative to the entire poker "pool") don't either.

Get over it.

I agree these are all VERY valid reasons to worry about a decline in business.

I don't see a bbj being the reason someone decides to go to once place over the other. Even casual/fish/tourists, will choose closest room first, followed very closely by game of choice. If it's a giant number, yeah a few extra people might make the trip. Really don't see someone driving past another poker room solely to chase a BBJ.

With that said, alienating, or upsetting the regulars, who make the games go by effectively using their money to generate business isn't the way to go.
Using players money to fund promotions is a krappy thing to do. Because it's universally accepted doesn't make it right.

My two cents, free alcohol, a hotel, dinner/club options. Putting the casino and poker room together. Things that make Parx more "ACish" will be the biggest way to control the eventual player dispersal.

I've played mainly at Parx since turning 21 so most of what goes on there is the "norm" in my head. I went to AC for the first time in six months or so and what I noticed, at least during the daily tourneys, is that the dealers at Borgata were much worse than those at Parx. I worded that poorly because the point I'm making is that Parx dealers are actually quite good. I never noticed this before but it's rare that the action freezes at Parx and a dealer isn't paying attention to prompt it. In the little daily tourney I played at Borgata today I was telling the dealer what the side pot should be cuz he was taking like a full minute to figure it out. This doesn't happen very often at all at Parx. Shout out to the dealers!

Since every other room in the area has a BBJ, upsetting the regulars is hardly a concern. I mean, if they leave parx, where are they going to play that doesn't have a BBJ and has the traffic that parx has?

And if a BBJ isn't a reason someone decides to play at a specific room, then on the flip side, having a BBJ isn't a reason that regs stay away from a specific casino since 90% of the pokers rooms in a 70 mile radius of parx has a jackpot.

If you're a semi reg player or a die hard reg are you going to drive 40 miles out of your way to save $2-4/hr when it's most likely gonna cost you that in gas and tolls, not to mention 90 minutes or so of travel that you aren't grinding, just to avoid the extra $1 BBJ drop? No chance in hell this happens


Parx angered their regs last winter when they took away comps without notice. They went from never expiring comps to 60 days without a peep to players.
That was definitely not the way to do business but it hasn't affected them in the least.

Most people on 2+2 aren't chasing lotteries and BBJs so I fully understand your points. But most players in poker rooms aren't die hard 2+2ers either.

I for one will definitely play less at parx if they start a BBJ. The lack of a BBJ at Parx is the reason it is my room of choice. I live about five miles closer to Chester, and they have better comps like the $10 food comp after 5 hours play. You can also use Chester comps in AC. I think Borgata is a much better room, with a luxury hotel where I stay for free and get free parking, fine dining options, and a better hourly comp rate. Although I don't drink, I like the fact that other players drink free at Borgata and there is higher ratio of drunk players per table there, and the games are generaly easier. I also realize that if you play no limit you lose more than the dollar per hand to the BBJ. Every time you stack a player you also lose all the dollars that they paid into the BBJ. This is definitely negitive EV, and I don't believe fish playing poorly chasing the BBJ can ever make this money back for you. It's been good playing at Parx with the cheaper rake, but if the rake is the same as everywhere else Parx will no longer be my room of choice.

If you gave the regs two options they will choose the one without the bbj. I think a reg who realizes they are giving up hundreds to maybe thousands over the year $1 a time, will choose with his wallet, if possible. I know I would.

Keeping their customers happy should be their first priority. Taking their money to promote the room isn't good. Putting a plan into action that will occasionally bring in a recreational player, while upsetting the bread and butter regs is a poor choice.

Maybe I don't hear the clamoring for a BBJ that the parx management does? Guess there could be oodles of people asking for one.

As much of a nit as I am, I think we should embrace the BBJ... At first I was not for it but do think the games are drying up a bit. If you ask the average poker player within the phila area they will say Parx has the toughest games/regs (I'm sure you guys have heard the same).

Ashinynickle...



... Embrace the BBJ!

Good post SolidFish. These other regs need to man up and be prepared to start calling any raise with their pairs and suited connectors so they can get some bad beat money too.

I think that is what they are afraid of, these girly men are afraid to play any hands other then premium starting hands.

This is laughably wrong. Businesses aren't there to make people or happy, they are in it to make money and be profitable.

That 5 miles must be a real stretch.

All these arguments are almost infantile. It reminds me of the smokers who were up in arms about smoking being banned at pretty much every bar/restaurant. The same arguments were put out there. "I'll take my business elsewhere!" blah blah blah. In the end, it happened just as we all knew it would happen. The world didn't end. It wasn't that big of a deal, just like this isn't a big deal.

Get over it.

You make good arguments except the only one that matters; Where is the bread and butter reg going to go since every other poker room in the area already has a BBJ?

Also, why do you assume every reg plays at Parx? Don't you think Chester and the Sands have regs playing there every single day? Well if so, they have a choice to go play at parx right now without a BBJ and they still choose to play where they are losing hundreds to thousands a year donating to a jackpot pool.

Parx is doing a very good job at keeping the majority of customers happy as the room is more crowded this year than last year. That really says it all.

I simply stated that I decide where I play based on which room has the lowest rake and the best comps and you say that is infantile. I don't understand your logic.

^^

so you"ll drive 45 minutes out of your way to the borgata each way for better food options, free parking and free rooms?

I don't know what your win rate is but for debate sake lets say it's $25/hr.

gas and tolls to and from Brogata = ~40
not making $25/hr when having to travel 1.5 hrs = $~35.00

depending on where you live and how far it takes you to get to AC, you are out `$50-80 before you even play a hand, trying to dodge a $1 BBJ fee.

If you win 4 pots an hour for 8 hrs, the BBJ cost you $32.00

net loss of ~$15-$40 by driving to AC over parx.

Infantile might be harsh, but there are many other factors that have a greater direct impact on your poker bottom line then the BBj does.

Games are looser when the BBj is higher which = more maxed out rake pots at lower level 1/2 games which = more revenue for the casino even if it doesnt draw in more people.


If you check the Bravo app, there are better options in AC for best comps/lower rake than Borgata. They just don't have the traffic that Borgata has so you might not be able to play enough hours that you are normally use to.

Yes I drive 45 minutes out of my way to play at the Borgata once or twice a month. Borgata comps can't be beat. I get two free nights every week any night except Saturday. That's at least a $200 value, much more in the summer. The hourly comp rate is twice what Parx gives. Borgata is my summer shore house, and winter too. My math is different than yours. I usually play about six hour sessions no matter how long I drive. When I go to Borgata I stay two nights and get three six hour sessions over three days. When I drive a half hour to parx I get one six hour session. I don't mind the extra drive for the extra play. Also it cost me about $20 to get to Borgata not $40. My car gets over 30 miles per gallon of gas and I pay a $5 bridge toll. So the extra time and expense to get to Borgata is well worth it to me, and I'll be doing it more often when Parx rake goes up. Saving the extra $1 rake will more than pay for my travel expenses and I'll be on the beach between poker sessions. Have fun on Street Road. I'll stop in once in a while for old times sake.

All this bbj debate has left me confused. I have one simple question: Is there a bbj at parx?