I always forget that Jeremy isn't manager. Never met Jason. I can only hope that Jeremy passes along recommendations to him/whoever writes the checks.

My sarcasm regarding the money issue is only to illustrate that sometimes you simply can't be perfect because it's not financially possible.

I haven't made it to the Commerce yet. I usually go out to LA once a year, but I'd rather hang out at the beach and chase skirt around Hollywood than play cards. It's definitely at the top of my list of places to go. My number 1 criteria for a good poker room is loose players who give a lot of action. From what I hear, Commerce has the loosest action arounnd.

I went to the Shoe 3x in last 2 weeks and had this happen at least once each time. Not out of suspected collusion, just information, and done only by people not in the hand.

Coconuts - Love your posts! - Don't have a b word - But my c word is curmudgeon but I mean it in as a nice way. You make me laugh! Here are some of my assessments -

As far as experiencing other poker rooms, I, too, have been to the Wynn, Bellagio, Venetian Casesar’s Palace, MGM, The Mirage…….

Wynn - Very nice room, you can eat at the table. I was in an excellent 4/8 limit game there in April and was winning like crazy. Had played several hours - didn’t want to break my streak so ate a sandwich at the table. Don’t do this often - but liked that option.

Bellagio - Same impression as most who have posted. The have become snobs. Don’t know why because a few years ago it wasn’t like that for me. A few years ago they were always very very busy and had a lot of tables going. 4/8,8/16,15/30 limit games. Omaha h/l - There was a low limit Omaha3/6 and a higher 15/30. This was all b/4 the Moneymaker explosion and the no limit explosion.

Venetian - Has become very popular and when I was there in April the popular draw was deep stack tournaments. Nice room. Food service at the tables.

Ceasar’s Palace - The room is hard to find. Kind of buried. You have to go thru a door to get there. It felt very private. When I got there - there wasn’t much action. So I left.

MGM - Lots of no limit. Played for a while. They had a very noisy bar behind the room that would explode with music, I think every half hour.

The Mirage - Have always liked the room for the games, but they are not generous with their comps.

These are some of the popular strip poker rooms, but I think if you want to have a more friendly atmosphere and an idea of poker rooms for local people(like we are in Chicago) the local poker rooms in Las Vegas are the ones to try.

The Orleans - They have a great board. They can even mark on the board when someone is eating. In other words - different codes for people not in their seats. In April I complimented the person running that board - a woman - she was fast and excellent. They have seat change buttons. They are a no-nonsense poker room. Third man walking rule(enforced). When a dealer sits down he immediately notes and throws a button to an empty seat. The next dealer adds a button to the empty seat. When a third dealer comes in he notifies the floor that this will be the third button. If the player returns he can only turn in one button at a time. One to that dealer and then one to the next dealer. They run tournaments daily at noon and seven pm.

Other local rooms and yes, I have been to these also and actually like most of the local rooms better than the strip - Boulder Station, Sam’s Town, Sunset Station and Red Rock.

Closer to home we are very good poker rooms in Minnesota - thinking Canterbury Park, Running Aces. Been there too.

In St. Louis - Ameristar and Harrah's are the last ones I've been to and had no complaints there.

My favorite on the strip is probably the Wynn with The Venetian a close second.

My complaints and compliments about the Horseshoe, Hammond are not frivilous. Like you and a few others here, I do know a good poker room when I see one.

If you want to compare the Horseshoe with the strip rooms - Its way up there except for being 9 handed which I don’t expect to see changed. The poker room at the Horseshoe is the best part of the casino even though it has a few minor changes they still have to deal with. It is much improved and I still stand by the fact that best run businesses listen to their customers.

I sincerely do like the added touch of the candy bowl! You can let a hard candy melt in your mouth while waiting for that player at the table to make up his mind whether to call, raise or fold.

Sunglasses-

The Orleans is a nice room. I stayed there for a week once. Good floor, big room, separate area for tournaments, good tourney structure, Subway right next to poker room where you can grab a deli sandwich quick (very nice), other good food options - sushi, TGIF, nice diner-type restaurant. This is definitely the best off-strip room. That is where the positives end.

The biggest negative is the players. No drunk tourists, ultra-nitty, uber-tight old locals playing mostly low limit. The 4/8 O8 game is the tightest and most excrutiatingly boring game in the world. During the day, the old retired guys want the tables full-handed at all times so they can peddle the nuts and earn enough comps to get a steak dinner at 2:30. For most poker players, this is not the type of poker game they are looking for. I can see why Sunglasses likes this room -- it caters to his style of play (which is fine if that is what you're looking for). The other off-strip rooms suffer from the same problems.

The local rooms basically cater to retired people who want to earn comps while taking no risk. To me, they don't compare to the bigger strip rooms or the Shoe.

I totally agree. I have played there twice and the floor acted very annoyed that they had to help me. Also playing 10/20 my table was just outside the big room and every dealer that was at my table complained that the big game that was going on was next on their rotation and they make no money in the room. Tables were also too close together. I liked the Wynn and Venetian although I only played a tourney at Venetian.

Well said sir. I just got back from vegas and your observations are spot on. Venetian has amazing food, the most courteous service, great masseuses, the hottest waitresses, great poker tables and chairs, and just a really nice gaming environment. This is how a poker room should be run and they make you feel welcome whether you are playing the smallest limit game or the biggest NL game.

I also logged quite a few hours at bellagio in the 1-2 and 5-10 NL games. The buzz in the room on friday and saturday nights cant be beat and its always neat to see pros playing right next to you. Action was pretty good, but the floor couldn't be more miserable if they tried. I had to practically beg to get on the list and one of the waitresses actually told me to go the bar because she was too busy. Despite the ****ty service, I will always return back because of the superior ambiance.

There's no lack of nice skirt hanging around the commerce, so you can kill two birds with one stone. Commerce clearly #1 on my list, if there is such a place as poker heaven, it gets my vote.

Poker is a night game A.P., and this is universal. At any casino, in any town, no matter what the limits, the bewitching hour seems to be right around 7 pm. I gotta think it has to do with the working people comin' in around that time to let off some steam. Vegas daytime poker does truly suck, but that's pretty much the norm anywhere.

Def.... although I once had a kid take my glass of ice (leftover from a pop) and spit in it without even asking me.

Cute Specs, cute. You really are paying attention, aren't you!

Glad you like the posts. Your comments are a refreshing departure from the usual assortment of name calling, demands for banishment, and death threats. I'm doing a lot of posting lately because I'm afraid to leave the house. Thanks.

Game requests

Wednesday 30 games
1 25-50 NL/PLO
5 5-10 NL
1 40-80 HORSE
1 40-80 limit holdem
2 20-40 hold em
1 10-20 he
1 2-5 PLO
5 2-5 NL
10 1-2 NL
3 3-6 limit he

Thursday 24 games
3 5-10 NL
1 20 40 O8/S8
1 20-40 limit he
1 2-5 PLO
1 10-20 limit he
5 2-5 nl
9 1-2 nl
3 3-6 limit

Oh man, this was a big debate right before we first opened in the other long thread. I know there are many players that do not like this rule because someone has asked them at one time or another to show their hand when they have not wanted to show it. We do allow it and one of the main reasons is, if you don't allow it and if players know you CAN'T asked to see a hand they could be more likely TO try and collude. The main purpose of the IWTSTH is if someone suspects collusion, not to see how someone plays. All though, we do only allow it once per half hour for each person (the once per half is so one person does not take advantage of the rule). This however is the WORST poker etiquette act when someone asks to see a hand, when they DO NOT suspect collusion, ESPECIALLY when the winner of the pot asks to see it.

I.E. this is the only time that a mucked hand would become live is if the WINNER of the hand asks to see it and it is a better hand. There was a great article in Cardplayer about this rule a year or so ago.

This rule is RARELY abused in our room though.

Thank you. We have a great staff to make it possible to ensure great service!

Jeremy, if you are concerned about IWTSTH but don't want to eliminate it entirely, why not make it so that you have to call a floor over and explain why you believe there is collusion before it can be invoked? Train your floors to deal with it as well, to try to ensure that it's not just used for information. Once per down is an awful lot of times to be allowed to invoke it, I think.

Can not run it twice.

We have considered it. As stated before the rule is rarly abused so it has not really been an issue. I will reconsider as I agree with you but it will not be eliminated entirely.

If you mean that people aren't invoking it enough to be problematic, fine. But 99.99% of the time this rule IS invoked it's being abused! -lol. Rarely, is the person ever really concerned about collusion. They just suck at reading hands and need some help by invoking this rule.

Btw- Have you considered raising the HORSE stakes to at least $50/$100? From what I hear, it's busting players and really hurting the 20/40 game. FWIW- There's a reason why places like Commerce have $100/$200 LHE and the next highest mixed game spread is usually $400/$800. It's great you're willing to spread whatever the players want, but you gotta be careful not to hurt the overall health of other games. Just my opinion...

The only time I ever witnessed abuse of IWTSTH was several years ago at the Flamingo Hilton in Las Vegas(a small poker area). A tourist found out about the rule and asked to see almost every time. He was out of control.

Otherwise, I have not witnessed any IWTSTH abuse at the Horseshoe or for that matter almost anywhere else I’ve played(and I’ve played a lot of Poker).

For me, I can count on one hand the number of times I have asked to see. An instance I can recall is when I was the original raiser, someone raised behind me and there was a third party involved. Checked the flop and the raiser behind me bet. The third party called, I folded. The raiser bets on turn and is called. The raiser checks the river. Third party bets and is still called by the raiser. Third party shows hand and the raiser mucks. At that point, I might have been the winner so I asked to see the hand. He mucked it too quickly though. It did not feel right.

As long as I was a person involved in the hand I had this right. It is a good rule because there is always the possibility of collusion.

Getting the floor involved and telling why you think there might be collusion would not only slow the game but cause hostility and resentment.:

Coconuts to the rescue! I assume (perhaps incorrectly, although that would be rare), that we can't run it twice is because it is time consuming and costs the house rake. What other reason can there be to deny players this option if they want it?

Simple solution: If players want to run it twice, they must agree to a $6 "fee." This fee would be divided $5 to the house, and $1 to the dealer. Let those involved in the hand decide who pays it, winner, loser, both combined, or underdog.

Running it a second time takes less time than it would to deal the next hand, so the house actually increases rake a tad, the dealer gets an extra buck for simply laying out a couple extra board cards, and the players are happy because the house is broad-minded and kind enough to let them have their way once in a while. You're welcome, Jeremy. You're welcome, dealers.

Amen to this paragraph, and amen to Jeremy's statement that asking to see the hand, especially requested from the winner, is the worst possible poker etiquette. These people should be taken outside and stoned to death, the way we used to do it in my home game (please don't ask if you can join the game - it broke up because of lack of players).

The best rule I ever saw concerning this was employed by the Stardust in Vegas: No one can ask to see the hand except the winner, and if he does, it's a live hand. If you suspect collusion, report it to management quietly, and let them put their cameras and security to good use.

While we're on this topic, I must recollect the happiest poker moment of my life: A whacko girlfriend of during my Vegas days (didn't mind the "whacko" part, the sex was good, and that's all that matters to most of us) was having a bad day at the 'Dust. We were at the same table together, and after 3 or 4 hours of not winning a pot, she rivered a full house to beat what she believed to be a flush made on the turn. Her opponent, a very nice middle-aged tourist, mucked his hand face-down toward the dealer, and in one of her usual snits of madness, she demanded to see the guy's hand. The dealer turned it over, and lo and behold, don't you know he had overlooked the straight-flush that he had made on the turn, and this huge pot was pushed his way. She never asked to see a losing hand again, until the day she died, sadly, from a mob-stoning in the alley behind my house.

This^. Unfortunately, the rule needs to be in place to protect against collusion. So there's not much you can do except to make sure people aren't disrupting the games because of it.

how is it that hard not to have a tournament schedule... SERIOUSLY

Very humurous!- Its like a Today's Chuckle in the newspaper.

Back to IWTSTH -One of my favorite wins is when I called the bettor and he mucks his hand. I would never never ask to see what he mucked. I am just pleasantly surprised I love that win!

creating the tournament structure and schedule is trivial, as you suggested. i would think the reason for the hold up is the approval needed by the gaming commission. just a logical guess...