Maybe because they try and run their chip stacks up?

Maybe because a poker Tournament is like a race in some respects, but who knows how it got started really!

I know this doesn't REALLY answer the question, but at least it gives some guidance. There were 30 entries in the 12:15 today, and 3 of us chopped the money (and played for the $400 seat). I was in my car by 5:15 after payouts and everything. Each of us had ~20 BB when 3-handed.

[/thinly veiled brag obv]

Because they're in the running to win.

Also I haven't played in the tournaments mostly due to the rake. 27.5% is too much to play. I may enter the $400 tournament on the first Saturdays but the 110 and 210 don't seem worth the time

I was curious about what other places do - and this all depends on how you play with the numbers - meaning, do you count the $10 toke that Horseshoe and Hollywood add to the buy-in as part of the "rake" - or do see that as the tip and would reduce accordingly if you win. That aside - these are the numbers using the toke as part of the rake:

Horseshoe:
110=80+20+10 = 27.3%
210=170+30+10 = 19.0%
400=350+40+10=12.5%

Hollywood Columbus:
70=50+10+10=28.6%
100=75+15+10=25.0%
150=120+20+10=20.0%
250=210+30+10=16.0%
450=400+40+10=11.1%

I could not find the actual rake for Indiana casinos online, so can't include those. But to compare to some vegas places which never include a toke (so a good discussion to be had there)

Aria: 150=125+25+0=16.7%
Bally's: 78=60+18+0=23.1%
Bellagio: 150=125+25+0=16.7%
Bellagio: 370=335+35+0=9.5%
Ceasars: 90=70+20+0=22.2%
Ceasars: 140=110+30+0=21.4%
Excalibur: 52=40+12+0=23.1%
MGM: 100=80+20+0=20.0%
Venetian: 145=120+25+0=17.2%
Wynn: 155=140+15+0=9.7%
Rio: 88=70+18+0=20.5%

So I don't think the Horseshoe numbers are all that different really. There is no doubt that with the toke included, outside of hollywood, they have worse % for a low end game. But what is interesting is if you take the toke out:

Horseshoe ignore toke:
100=80+20+0 = 20.0%
200=170+30+0 = 15.0%
390=350+40+0=10.3%

Hollywood Columbus ignore toke:
60=50+10+0=16.7%
90=75+15+0=16.7%
140=120+20+0=14.3%
240=210+30+0=12.5%
440=400+40+0=9.1%

So now the numbers look very much the same as all other places and even a little better. So I guess the real question boils down - how do you deal with the $10 toke. Do you ignore it as player or appreciate it? Does it change your tipping at the end?

And while I'm at it - can anyone explain what this means on the horseshoe website:

"Tournament buy-in & starting stack is inclusive of an $10 optional dealer toke. Players option out of the dealer toke will have a starting stack of only 100 tournament chips and need to address this prior to registering."

What does that mean? How do you address it? How does the dealer even know? Does your ticket print saying "short-stack this cheap ass?"

I count the add-on as part of the rake, because it's money I paid that's not going to the prize fund. I also tip less if there is an dealer add-on

According to your numbers, while in the same ballpark Horseshoe's rake is higher than both Hollywood Columbus, and Lawrenceburg. The difference is the structures are vastly better at both Hollywood sites. Of course Lawrenceburg is not getting many players either for many other reasons.

IMO the deduction for not taking the add-on is their way of making it mandatory. I can't imagine anybody has done it.

I guess that is what it boils down to - if at the end of a hundred tournaments you paid 100x110=11,000 for entry, plus you placed ITM on a few winning 30,000 but you leave smaller tips then your return is 30,000-11,000-small tip

But playing the same without the toke you hit:
30,000-10,000(100x100)-bigger tip

So the real question is - how much bigger is the tip when there is no toke? If you hit ITM on 30 of the 100 events and tipped an extra $35 bucks per event - you just went over the difference.

Saying that - I think they know most tips on average won't adjust for the toke. So it will be a better payday for the dealers. And the horseshoe floor guy pushes for the extra tips - as if there was no toke. So I'm actually agreeing with you - but will say if you can stand the pressure and tip less knowing about the toke then the horseshoe numbers are more reasonable ... (Or comparable at least)

25/50 PLO is back, for today at least. Got a decent list for it as well.

Two tables now with 5 on the list. Someone started a 1000/2000 PLO list, lol.

I just played one of the $80s at Hollywood Lawrenceburg. It was $65+15 for 6000 chips, with an additional $10 toked to the dealer at the first table for an extra 2000.

If you buy in to the monthly for $390, they will give you 100 chips. If you buy in for $400, you get 10,000. I can't imagine anybody willingly starting with 2BB?!? Quite an effective way of "encouraging" the tokes. I won't get into it, since there is a tipping containment thread, but I would guess the dealers come out ahead with this method.

Can I buy in for 1 SB?

This.

You have to expect to get screwed on both rake and structure in small buyin dailies, but the once a month 400 needs a vastly improved structure

Anybody playing tonight? Seems like they are paying out pretty much 1 place per table. I can never figure it out. I played with 81 and they paid out 9. Played with 63 and they paid out 6. Seems like 1 place per full table.

The best I have heard is that it's 10% rounded down - but that wouldn't work for the 81/9 you saw. We had 40 players in our Tuesday tournament (2+ weeks ago) and they paid 3 still. We started with 35 on 4 tables - they added on one late to hit 36 and they only added the last 4 as someone busted out. We never went to 5 tables. Still if it was based on tables then we should have had 4 payouts instead of 3 ... And 10% of 40 also means 4 payouts - but it held to 3. Not sure what the magic formula is ...

And if it was full tables - wouldn't 63 then pay 7 tables of 9 or were you at 10/table right away? So far I've only seen 10 done on the final table.

right - there are tables of 9. Now that I think about it, maybe it was 8 paid out in that one we had 81 players.

Wife and I played the Friday daily in Columbus last week. I chose Columbus because we've not been there yet and I liked the structure.

It was a long tournament. I asked the dealers when we started about how long they last and was told 10+ hours. That's a long, long daily tournament. When I played the bouties in L'Burg they were almost always over by 3am, which is only 8 hours. And that was with more runners.

Friday we had 80 runners and I busted out in the low 20's around 6pm. My wife lasted another hour maybe and was out 16. Just before the 40 minute dinner break. For $100, it was almost too long. Casual players won't buy into these long events and eventually they will fill up with mostly good players. Who wants that?

Funny how nobody is ever happy. The Shoe's ante structure is too early in my opinion (would like it to start at level 7), making it a push fest too early. Tourneys seem to end around 6 hours or so. You complain because it is too long. Seems nobody gets it right, but we all still play and complain about it

I get what you are saying. But for $100, 10+ hours is too long, IMO. The structure was great, but I'd maybe drop the levels to 20 minutes. Structures like that aren't going to keep too many casual tournament players around for more than one tournament.

But yeah, the beauty of it all is that everyone wants something a little different. Luckily (I guess), there are quite a few options in the area to choose from.

So what are the estimates for the number of entrants for the first $400 event?

The 42 seats they're giving away should be a big boost to the numbers, but I'm not sure how many people will enter without the free seat.

They need a total of 143 entries to cover the 50k guarantee. I hope I'm wrong, but I don't think there will be many more than that.

What if there are only 50 and they pay 10% so 5 players are splitting the pool of 50,000 instead of 14 splitting it. That might be more fun! Or screams of them saying the tourney is cancelled -

If it's not 47 - then hope it's more like 200. No dinner breaks are scheduled. Will they add one if enough people survive the structure long enough?

Every time Hollywood ran a tournament with a guarantee and people thought the field would be small and there would be some kind of overlay (like their $10k or $25k tournaments on a holiday or day when people "should" be out of town), the field ended up being extra big that day because everyone was thinking the same thing. I think Horseshoe will cover the 143 entries by a decent amount.

Agreed. They will cover.

I dunno. $400 may be too big to break the 143 mark. I'd say under 100 but still decent sized.

158 for the tournament today. 13k to first. 44 left.

Also the garage only had a few spaces left when I got here at 5:15. If you're coming now you'll probably have to park elsewhere.