The “hoodies and shades” BS is infuriating. It’s another example of people trying way to damn hard to come up with nonsensical reasons as to why poker isn’t bigger than it is. If the hoodies and shades folks aren’t holding up the game or acting like complete clowns at the table then what’s the issue? Not every 1/2 or 2/5 game needs to be a raucous party full of social butterflies. Let people be who they are.

When a whale sits down with you and you ignore him and try to put him on a lolrange while listening to nickelback just don't be surprised when he never returns and tells his friends not to also

I have literally made friends in the pit (without playing) and brought them to my table when it's dying..tf have you done besides pay rake and circle jerk with regs

Have you ever bought a whale a drink? Prolly not that would -ev right? Was a regular at woodbine for 3 years until it closed, and any time a stranger sat at the table full of us silent fckers I would make sure at least a few of us started talking and pretended to enjoy being there

Take a woman to the casino, and spend 2 hours in the pit and see the tips being tossed around and the bets being placed. Watch those degen pricks bond with each other at craps while they dump 3x your roll every bet...then sit at your poker table and ask yourself why casinos hate poker/derail

You really are uninformed, if you think that a new poker player or a less experienced player that sits at a poker table full of people that are not talking, watching a movie...etc on their phones will enjoy the experience and be back.

This is a huge problem and I mean huge problem at today's poker rooms, especially in the higher stakes games.

No, it doesn't have to be some sort of comedy club but the need for some sort of environment, that makes people enjoy the experience while still feeling challenged is important.

And your statement ''that poker isn't bigger than it is'' Poker is big, it's just not big in the GTA area because there's no place to play with reasonable rake within 80km of Toronto central. You drive to Rama, which is a joke. Drive to Niagara which is a forever trip, Brantford and wait for hours or GBH which is becoming the biggest joke of all, although it's early in their implementation

a 6.5 mill metro area, with these options is ridiculous.

I’m sure those craps whales are really enamored with some poker nit being a spectator at the craps table. Lol I’m guessing that didn’t happen. Yes I have bought a whale a drink. But my point is if I tried to act like Daniel Negreanu when I’m not that person, I fail to see how that would benefit the game. In fact it might have the opposite effect. That’s not to say that I don’t engage with people/whales if the conversation comes naturally. You people keep treating the whales like they’re children who need shiny objects and loud noises to be attracted to poker, sorry not sorry if I want to give them just a little more credit than that.

I bought this whale a box of Sicilian Cannoli at Fallsview VIP last year. He actually took serious offense because he weighed close to 600 pounds.

You're guessing what didn't happen?
I do see your point tho, if you're not a talkative/social person there is no point in forcing it. My point is if every table is filled with anti social introverts then it is not good for attracting recs

As someone who used to be socially awkward (arguable still socially awkward), I can confirm that if you're not a people person, forcing it to "entertain" the fish will just annoy them.

I think at this point this conversation is largely irrelevant. People are people, they're all different. Anyone who wants to sit at a poker table will sit, and that's the end of it, it is what it is. Trying to deconstruct it to the nth degree is pointless.

Poker in the GTA sucks cause Great Canadian is not being made to run a proper poker room in the GTA. Full stop. They, along with the OLG, bear 100% responsibility for the current shitshow.

Any insinuation that poker players are in any way responsible for this is way off base. The Ontario government, the OLG, and Great Canadian are responsible. End of story. If the current royalties being charged to the licensees do not make poker feasible, then a reduced royalty for poker only needs to be negotiated. The rest is all incompetence and/or corruption. But I do question how it is that the new operator in Niagara, Mohegan Sun, operating under the same royalty and wage structure as Great Canadian, is able to offer poker, and do it at a much lower rake, while this Great Canadian says this is not possible. Is Mohegan Sun incompetent and/or losing money in Niagara? Or is Great Canadian lying? One or the other must be true, they can't both be right. The only way this would make sense would be if the province was charging Mohegan Sun a smaller royalty (which I can see happening, as Niagara is a secondary market, and political considerations relating to jobs are in play), but if this is the case then a lesser royalty for poker in the GTA should be negotiated.

Assuming the same royalty rate, the only major variable differing between these two sites is the cost of land, and remote Pickering land, while more expensive than Niagara land, wouldn't account for much difference in the overall finances of the situation. So something here doesn't pass the smell test. Blaming poker players in any way for any of this is totally wrong.

I think dealers get paid more in Canada than in the US. That cost eventually translates into more rake. I think that's why rake in Europe is so bad. Cause they get paid so much tipping is not even a thing.

Of course this is true. Why do you think poker is so popular in Nevada & Florida? Two of the lowest minimum wages in America. There is counterpoint to this as well tho -- California has probably the highest minimum wage in America & has some very healthy poker communities.

It also doesn't however explain why Mohegan Sun can make a go of it in Ontario & Great Canadian apparently cannot.

Because Great Canadian could not possibly care less about poker institutionally. In fact, they're just this side of openly hostile. They see it as an entry on the balance sheet that makes less than slots or the equivalent amount of BJ tables. Blue Heron started out the same way with the Austrians running it. Poker is not a winning enterprise for the casino when measured against everything else on the floor.

As far as Mohegan Sun, they're drawing from a much, much larger population base than Ontario. Blue Heron to Niagara Falls is roughly two hours, 2 and a half, give or take on traffic, 407, etc. 2.5 hours from Mohegan Sun is NYC. Draw a really big circle that wide and it's millions upon millions of people from NYC to Hatfahd to Boston. Plus an operator that at least outwardly gives a damn.

Blue Heron has never given a damn about poker. Ever. The original GM of the place is out in Calgary and has given the game the exact same treatment as he did in Ontario. The one after him, also English, hated the game, too. The fact that it lasted as long as it did before the closure/reboot is something of a miracle in and of itself and that's not even taking into account the general behavior of the poker crowd.

You cannot make an operator offer a game. Again, as in the other post I just responded to, you're letting your bias of "I like poker, I want poker" to cloud your outlook on the game, the casino industry and the economics of a game that, at best, runs 40-50% labor. Throw in provincial win taxes, other labor, and myriad other items and it's so far down the list in most places.

Years ago I was bluntly told this by the floor supervisor at Rama, if we can't make X at poker we will shutter the room. Slots make X+, be glad that we even offer poker.


This floor supervisor ran the room and was openly hostile to the players, what would a suit who gets a performance bonus for profits be towards poker.

The ultimate dream for a GTA poker player would be the EX become a permanent card room, but the city is hostile towards that.

As an added benefit all of the seedy underground games in the downtown core would die....

I fully understand poke isn't as profitable as other casino games, but I think that's irrelevant. With 2 large full service casinos operating in the GTA as of April, surely that must be enough to satisfy everyone who wants to donk off money at slots & tables games. It has to be. And in addition to the two large casinos, there's numerous smaller casinos in various communities across southern Ontario (even Peterborough and Belleville have them!).

Given this, I don't understand how between the OLG & GCG, they cannot figure out how to bring a proper poker room to the GTA. I truly don't get it. Turn Ajax downs into a poker room for all I care, that'd be good enough. Will Ajax Downs as a crappy old racetrack with slots only still be profitable once Pickering opens up 5 minutes down the road? I really have trouble seeing that.

So again, why no poker...??? It's nothing to do with it being profitable or not, there's something funny going on with either the OLG or GCG that this isn't happening. The easiest explanation is the OLG is allowing GCG to stick poker in GBH so it doesn't lose tons of cash, thereby allowing the province to avoid closing a native casino, which I'm sure they don't want those optics. GBH and Rama are both going to be Albatrosses around GCG's neck once Pickering opens, so maybe this is their way of reducing that loss.

I was thinking.,.. why doesn't everyone go leave a bad Google review of the Pickering Casino due to their lack of poker?

Here's the link --
https://www.google.ca/search?sxsrf=A...e7e7837af51c,1,,,

They're going to be super sensitive to this approaching their grand opening.

Excellent Idea. I am doing it.

same

Again, you are looking at this through the lens of "I like poker, I want poker, give it to me" and not an industry or even an operator. You may think that's irrelevant but you're not the one signing the dealers'/supervisors' paychecks. Nor are you the one answering to a board or shareholders; GCC is a publicly traded company. If you would like me to walk you through the math of why poker is not a casino-friendly game without being pedantic, just ask. I'm someone well acquainted with the industry, let's just say.

Also, any comparisons between poker and just about *any* other table game look foolish. Blue Heron is merely the place where GCC will throw a very small portion of the casino-going crowd a bone and offer an extremely modest concept of a poker room.

It's because they don't care. That's simple enough. In danger of repeating myself, you're using the wrong lens. You think there's an anti-poker conspiracy in this post where it simply boils down to not only mathematics but myriad other issues. The poker industry is not worth what you think it is, unfortunately. That supervisor quoted in an earlier post is correct: if the joint you play at even offers the/a game, be thankful and conduct yourself accordingly.

I fully understand you, it's you who's not understanding me. GCG hates poker cause of it's financials. I understand. Other casino operators probably also aren't thrilled with poker, but don't hate it as much as GCG. I understand that too. But not for one second would you be able to convince me poker isn't profitable. Or if this truly is the case, there needs to be a negotiation on royalty reduction between the operator & the province.

Further, the very existence of poker in Niagara at a very reasonable rake undercuts all of your GCG centric arguments.

There is a huge demand, and there is money being left on the table. That money either stays local and gets taxed, or some goes to Niagara, some goes to Vegas, and some goes underground, with the latter two options not being taxed at all.

If I was head of the OLG, I would figure this out. And that opinion is from a maximize revenues perspective, not a "I like poker" as you say perspective.

It’s not about it being “profitable”, it’s about it being profitable enough and it’s not. Again, you’re looking at it as a player who wants something and thinks it needs to happen. “If I was head of OLG” your list of job description would encompass much more than whether Buggle has his 1-2/2-5 itch scratched. Maximizing revenues would be the removal of poker because slots and tables make more than poker in the same amount of space. Slots are free money.

Plus throw in the never ending lists of player demands, gross overvaluation of themselves, general behavior on the tables/in the pit and poker is regarded as more headache than it’s worth.

The argument to make is the return of limit instead of NL. That’s part of how I believe it lasted as long as it there. Limit maximizes revenue.

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree. The poker community is to a very significant degree separate from the other casino games. The two ecosystems only cross to some degree (say 30%). It's not about 'space', it's about money. Therefore, not making an effort to get those dollars is a small time loser attitude, one which is sadly only too common in Canadian companies.

If you're telling me that Rama & GBH will remain cash cows once Pickering opens I'll disagree. If you're telling me that slots at Ajax Downs will be more profitable than poker once Pickering opens I'll REALLY disagree with you. I know slot degens are stupid, but if you're telling me they won't drive (at worst) an extra 10 minutes for a 10x the size casino.... they're not that stupid. So what's the argument for not putting poker at Ajax Downs?

Further, Ajax Downs is continuing to exist solely for political optics. No other reason. GCG wasn't clamoring for it to remain open. So your raising of the space issue over & over again is irrelevant. If GCG & the OLG are in agreement they're leaving money on the table, they'll figure out a way to get it done. So what possible reason could there be for the OLG to not license a poker room in the GTA? Put it in Woodbridge for all I care.

It's about maximizing revenues, and where there's a will there's a way. The rest is all bullshit.

You both make valid points. One of you is focussed on leaving $ on the table by not welcoming a distinct market into the casino while allowing that market to fuel underground games and markets like LV. The other if focussing on RATE of return, not ABSOLUTE return. The thinking is that there is limited space at a given casino, and maximizing profits means maximizing the ROI on the limited amount of square footage available.

Both concepts are very relevant in the business world, but we don't know precisely how the decisions are made in a quasi-privately operated business environment we have here in Ontario. If it were a genuinely competitive market like in LV, the former would likely reign as nobody would leave a dime on the table. Someone would operate in every niche area if there was a dollar to be made.

In Ontario, it's a different game, and I'm afraid that the focus is on rate or return for the limited casino space.

This is over-simplifying things as there are many other factors but my point is, you both have very valid views and should stop beating yourselves over the head.

I agree with your analysis, but not your conclusion. You're totally correct, he's mainly concerned with margin, and I'm asking why sales considerations cannot be added on top of margin concerns. From my perspective you take ALL orders, regardless of margin, so long as it's the most you can get, it's not cannibalizing your other business, and it's at a positive margin. I think poker at Ajax Downs ticks all those boxes. I think GCG is biased and lazy, and I think they're super comfortable cause they've never been exposed to real competition, and they're happy making their current high margins. Throughout my life I've had a front row seat to comfy Canadian companies doing a comfy business in the Canadian market, then inevitably the Americans show up and crush them cause they don't give a **** about anything other than closing the deal. Then the Canadian companies cry after the fact and start talking about things like fairness. I see this attitude relected in GCG's attitude to poker. If there was a second casino license in the GTA, and it was held by Caesar's or MGM, GCG would either not have the attitude they currently have towards poker, or they'd not be in business.

The more of a monopoly a business is, the more it worries about margin & less about sales, and we're looking very much at a monopoly situation here. Not only is it a monopoly, but it's a government sanctioned monopoly, which is the worst kind. GCG knows that the Ontario gov't has their back, come hell or high water. So there's very little incentive for them to be responsive to their customers.

But again, what's involved for them to go capture those extra dollars? A little negotiation with the province? Hiring more people in Pickering? Last I heard there were unemployed people there...

Me, as a customer, have very little recourse in this scenario. My basic recourse is public pressure, which I'm employing. Hopefully it encourages GCG to get off their ass and give this issue a more thorough unbiased evaluation.

Back in 2013 MGM was selling the idea of building a massive casino on the ex grounds. Ofc the government extorted them proposing something like 65mm a year in fees and they fled. Cdn Gov loves their monopolies ffs