02-14-2023 , 02:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg (FossilMan)
He's right, and wrong. If a table is running 24/7 all year, it will drop about \$1M in rake. But that doesn't mean a 10 table room rakes in \$10M. As most of the time, many of those tables are not in use. But if a 10 table room averages a game running at 4 of the tables, then it will rake in about \$4M.

Obviously this varies a lot from area to area, but it's a reasonable estimate when we're lumping together all the poker rooms across the U.S.

Cheers, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Any estimation on annual operating expenses?
02-14-2023 , 03:40 PM
Recfish in New England for the week for work. Was going to visit Encore and donk off a few buy-ins but saw that they're raking \$10-12/pot. Guess I'll just play when I get home..

Last edited by navyvol1998; 02-14-2023 at 03:51 PM.
02-14-2023 , 05:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg (FossilMan)
He's right, and wrong. If a table is running 24/7 all year, it will drop about \$1M in rake. But that doesn't mean a 10 table room rakes in \$10M. As most of the time, many of those tables are not in use. But if a 10 table room averages a game running at 4 of the tables, then it will rake in about \$4M.

Obviously this varies a lot from area to area, but it's a reasonable estimate when we're lumping together all the poker rooms across the U.S.

Cheers, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

I'm going to say (without doing the extrapolated math) that having the highest rake in the entire country a table at Encore rakes far more than \$1m per year... especially considering how crowded that room is and allegedly how great the action is leading to max rake being pulled almost every hand.
02-14-2023 , 09:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jh12547
They also need floors, managers, cage personnel, schedulers, engineers, security etc. All of them get paid more than \$8 an hour, not including benefits, and those benefits probably run the casino at least 500+ a week per employee. Sure it’s profitable but I’m not sure it’s immensely profitable. How many of those employees are used if there are just slots up there? Not nearly as many..

I think the person that said they will keep raising the rake until people stop going is spot on. They can go back to slots or tables, get the MGC off their back and be done with it. Remember before covid when they cut the room in half and added BJ tables. If the poker room was so profitable they wouldn’t have added BJ tables up there that sat empty all week and only ran on the weekends.
They didn’t cut the room in half due to the room not being so profitable. They cut the room in half because the only time those last 40-45 tables were being used were some Friday nights and Saturdays. Eliminating those empty tables in itself made the room more profitable.
02-14-2023 , 09:53 PM
Only if there was a cost, either actual or lost opportunity cost, associated with those tables.
02-15-2023 , 12:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by amazinmets73
Any estimation on annual operating expenses?
Not at all. But most of the expenses for any poker room are fixed costs (the costs that do not increase as you open more tables). The manager gets the same salary whether that 10 table room averages 4 games at a time, or 1 game at a time. The shift supervisor gets paid the same whether they are supervising 2 tables or 8 tables. The tables and chips are paid for already, and wear out slowly enough that again, it doesn't matter how much they get used. The variable costs are significant, but I believe they are lower than all the fixed costs.

This means if my 10-table room is averaging 3 games at a time, and it grows to 4 games, this could mean a LOT more than a 1/3 increase in profit. Gross revenue went up by 1/3, but net profit might go up by 70% or more.

Having said all that, if a poker room manager chimes in and says otherwise, they are probably correct.

Cheers, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
02-15-2023 , 03:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RhodyGuy
They didn’t cut the room in half due to the room not being so profitable. They cut the room in half because the only time those last 40-45 tables were being used were some Friday nights and Saturdays. Eliminating those empty tables in itself made the room more profitable.
This is not true. Pre-pandemic when they had 74 tables and a more reasonable rake you could go there on a Tuesday night and they would be running 50+ games without a problem. There would be a dozen or so 2-5 tables to choose from on a Tuesday night alone. Not to mention another 25+ tables of 1/3, a handful of 5/10, 10/20 and above as well as PLO and stud games. And all this would be going on during their slowest Monday and Tuesday nights. The place would be bursting at the seems on Friday and Saturday with 200+ on the waitlist and all 74 tables full. This was all without running many tournaments at all.
02-15-2023 , 05:47 PM
So they basically constricted supply and raised prices to bring demand down.

This is important, because a lot of the discussion operates under the hypothesis that demand is inelastic, when the case probably is that the higher rake has brought demand down, it's just the supply is so low that the casino can still find enough customers.
02-15-2023 , 06:19 PM
I also suspect that Encore is one of the casinos that's constricted by space.

In other words yes, if you have a choice between a slot machine and a poker table, the slot machine would be more profitable. But there's a point after which there are no increased profits by installing additional slot machines, because demand has been met. In the casinos that are constricted by space, offering poker isn't a problem, because it's an additional source of profit even with reduced margins. But at Encore, maybe there are additional money to be made by adding more slot machines or table games, so they are trying to reduce their poker offering.
02-16-2023 , 11:41 AM
Well, they got the ok to expand across the street. The new building will include a new poker room. So I guess they're not trying to get rid of it.
02-16-2023 , 11:56 AM
No matter how we dice it, I don't see them reducing their rake ever.
Which means I won't go back there. Maybe if they end up having tournaments at some point.
02-16-2023 , 12:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tintinpoker
No matter how we dice it, I don't see them reducing their rake ever.
Which means I won't go back there. Maybe if they end up having tournaments at some point.
We will see some tournies in a few years with what seems is the now approved poker room/Sportsbook.

I agree rake won’t come down ever and at this point it’s about surviving it. Sadly this is tough to do and certain tables will never be profitable. I do believe there will still be winners and certain tables are good enough especially as you move out of 1/3 into 2/5. Can’t comment on higher.

I won’t ever set foot in the room during the high hands anymore and will be at Twin more depending on how that rollout goes.
02-16-2023 , 02:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tintinpoker
No matter how we dice it, I don't see them reducing their rake ever.
Which means I won't go back there. Maybe if they end up having tournaments at some point.
How much would they charge for juice on MTTs then, 40%? 50%?
02-17-2023 , 08:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Burdzthewurd
How much would they charge for juice on MTTs then, 40%? 50%?
\$550 entry, 10k gtd! (250 goes to prize pool, 300 for dealer fees and service charges)
02-20-2023 , 12:35 PM
25-25 PLO ran all day yesterday Sunday of a long weekend... the \$ is flying around into the pots...
02-20-2023 , 01:44 PM
The poker community as a whole should be protesting Encore taking the lead on this type of predatory rake. Not just the locals. I'm sure other casinos without nearby competition will follow suit.
02-20-2023 , 03:09 PM
let's get real no one is protesting a god damned thing

pretty funny that it took a single casino 15 years to discover by accident what private games knew all along - fun players don't care about the rake and everyone else's opinion doesn't matter
02-20-2023 , 03:17 PM
I sent a letter the the gaming commission again. In it I outlined a few things but I did include the rake. Obviously I don't think they care how it affects my win rate but it does effect the poker community overall. I stressed less tips for dealers, less money in players pockets for dinner, food etc. I pointed out the rake doesn't make sense in regards to what we have? Sure I expected more rake post pandemic but not this much. Its not in line with inflation, its not in line with the industry, and if they had any competition in the area they would adjust slightly. 8+1, or 8+2 would be fair in my opinion.

But we are paying more for less and still getting long wait lists, limited options to cash out or even get chips. I stressed no chip runner, food service, tournaments. I pointed out how Wynn treats its Vegas customers. I stressed we are in a world class city and its a shame we've given a company a monopoly over eastern ma poker. what if Caesars could open a room at Raynham>? What about suffolk downs?

I know this isn't changed easily but they listened before and they will listen again. Maybe they can't change it but its worth sending an email if you care. i also noted i'm taking my play out of state now because of this which I will be doing a bit as I can be flexible but its still a joke we have to resort to that.
02-21-2023 , 11:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MuchoGood
I sent a letter the the gaming commission again. In it I outlined a few things but I did include the rake. Obviously I don't think they care how it affects my win rate but it does effect the poker community overall. I stressed less tips for dealers, less money in players pockets for dinner, food etc. I pointed out the rake doesn't make sense in regards to what we have? Sure I expected more rake post pandemic but not this much. Its not in line with inflation, its not in line with the industry, and if they had any competition in the area they would adjust slightly. 8+1, or 8+2 would be fair in my opinion.

But we are paying more for less and still getting long wait lists, limited options to cash out or even get chips. I stressed no chip runner, food service, tournaments. I pointed out how Wynn treats its Vegas customers. I stressed we are in a world class city and its a shame we've given a company a monopoly over eastern ma poker. what if Caesars could open a room at Raynham>? What about suffolk downs?

I know this isn't changed easily but they listened before and they will listen again. Maybe they can't change it but its worth sending an email if you care. i also noted i'm taking my play out of state now because of this which I will be doing a bit as I can be flexible but its still a joke we have to resort to that.
Sent several messages along the same lines to MGC. I think it is a good idea, and I do believe they listen.
Ppl in this forum saying nobody cares: you have your share of responsibility in this. Don't complain later the rake is too high and that Encore sucks.
02-22-2023 , 04:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PierreFermat
25-25 PLO ran all day yesterday Sunday of a long weekend... the \$ is flying around into the pots...
According to Atlas, looks like it is running now: 3:30 on a Wednesday afternoon. Shows 10/25 NL running as well.
02-22-2023 , 09:30 PM
the OP says the max buyin for 1/3 is 300 and 2/5 is 700
but pokeratlas says its 500 and 1000

which is accurate? I'm planning on going this weekend
02-22-2023 , 10:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by peatr999
the OP says the max buyin for 1/3 is 300 and 2/5 is 700
but pokeratlas says its 500 and 1000

which is accurate? I'm planning on going this weekend
Definitely 100-500 for 1/3, and I think 200-1000 for 2/5, so I believe PokerAtlas is correct.
02-22-2023 , 10:34 PM
Def 1/3 for \$500.
02-23-2023 , 06:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ungarop
Definitely 100-500 for 1/3, and I think 200-1000 for 2/5, so I believe PokerAtlas is correct.
300-1000.
02-23-2023 , 09:00 AM
Good morning, Mr. XXXXXX,

Thank you for contacting the Massachusetts Gaming Commission. The MGC has received your comment, noted your issue, and will continue to monitor poker operations to ensure regulatory compliance. Your issue has been facilitated to Encore’s VP of Gaming Operations and the Director of Table Games. The IEB has directed Encore to directly contact you for further discussion and to answer any questions related to this topic. Please feel free to follow up with the commission if you need additional assistance.

Have a great day,

Well I guess I'm waiting on the Encore to contact me? EMails can't hurt.

m