I can't blame you for asking -- it's human nature -- but use this as a learning opportunity. A 90 hour sample is not enough to tell you anything constructive about winrate. If you've played seriously online for very long, you won't think that -100 bb over 3000 hands means a whole lot. If you're having trouble adjusting to the pace of B&M and that 3000 hand downswings mean 5 trips, well, you're not alone.

(I like to play with random.org to get a feel for how bad a winning player can run. See the Gaussian generator. If you need some numbers -- for $1-2, try a mean of $10, a SD of $100/hr, and take 1000 observations and paste them in a spreadsheet. Do this 100 times and see how you're running after 90 hours each time. I have no reason to think your actual winrate is $10/hour, but it's a decent made-up number for a good 2+2 player.)

Detroit rake is horrible, but 2+2 could have built their site just out of posts claiming such-and-such is unbeatable based on small samples and/or lack of winrate.

FWIW i'm slaughtering the 5/10 limit Omaha hi-lo for $27/hour over 77 hours. Many people will tell you high rake makes split-pot games unbeatable. Have i proven anything? No, i've just run good.

OK, i'm a dork, and i know i'd do better to go to Motor City to play 2-5 or RxR, but here's why i love that $5/10 full kill O8 game:

That gap in the second stack is where a fourth wheel card on the river split my low.

Well finally ran good for a little at MGM today and got a $500 win, which puts me up a little overall. Still questioning the win rate though.

As a side note, does anybody ever play with middle-aged guy at Greektown who completely goes into a full Phil Hellmuth mode every time he is in a hand. He pulls his shirt over his mouth and covers it with his hand and puts his sunglasses on. Also, plays super super tight, claims he never loses, and bitches about every little hand he loses even if its like $10. Just wondered if anyone else has ever played with this D-Bag. He really bothers me.

2/5 is out of my bankroll but I sometimes think that game might be easier than the 1/2 game. Often times I am playing with a loose spewy type player at the 1/2 game when they called over to play 2/5 and I just think, wow. Just seems like a bunch of players who think they're a lot better than they actually are because they are a regular and playing the "big game", but in reality would get crushed in any decent online NL game way smaller.

I don't have the money/"psychological bankroll" to play $2-5 comfortably, but sometimes i buy in for $200 and try to make a quick double up to have a reasonable stack to play with. (I'm quite sure the short-stacking itself is profitable, probably moreso than full-stacking $1-2, but not as interesting.) The times i've played it it's a lot more aggro than $1-2, which makes it tougher, but i wouldn't really call it smart aggression.

Ah yes, she's got glasses and a limp right? Nice lady, but I can't disagree

You're absolutely right. Most players are losers, but I enjoy playing w/ the ones that think they are winners because their ego will keep them coming back.

Which game? I know $10/hr is doable and $15 on the rather high side at $1/2 downtown. However, as was mentioned you're not going to have enough hands to get a statistically significant sample for a long, long...long time. After a few hundred hours you should know if you're beating the game and after a thousand hours you should have an idea of your win rate.

5 sessions doesn't mean anything whether you won or lost. You might want to check out the poker theory section since win rate has been discussed at great length there.

I've only played a little live, but it didn't take long to notice that the dealers are just like poker players. They not only think they are the best dealer, but think all the other dealers suck.
I take it a lot of you guys play several times a week. Nice playing with you broadway

Thank you for the responses guys. Yes, I understand variance and win rate pretty extensively actually. I used to 12 table SNGs and saw the variance from it and realized that even 1000 games is just a drop in the bucket really. I was just find it funny how everyone has delusional mindset that they are winning poker players in live games.

Anyone else ITT going to the 2+2 Party at the Wynn on July 7?

Nope, I only played RxR on Saturday night for a little bit. Yeah it's been a bit of a nightmare the last week trying to get that game running. We will have 4 people there, they'll have 3 on the list, but for some reason refuse to start it, or one person doesn't want to play 7 handed, and then if he doesn't want to play, another guy doesn't want to start 6 handed. Once a few of the regulars from the game come back from Vegas it will be more consistent, but I'll still try to get it going regularly in the interim! The floor manager also claims to "know" people he can text who would play, but doesn't want to until we bring more people. I mean, it seems to me if I know 3 other people who want to play, plus 3 random people in the room, plus 2 people who hear about the game from texts that's 1+3+3+2= 9 people at a table...sounds like a full table to me, however, nobody else seems to see it that way...

John L.

I won't be, however, having gone to the one in 2009, I highly recommend it to everyone! It was a blast, every member got to bring one guest, there was an open bar, catered buffet, and tables full of wacky mixed games at every limit from $2/$4 to I wanna say $20/$40. I'm not sure if it's going to be the same this year, but again, highly recommended from this guy!

just moved to ann arbor so i will probably lurking around this thread for a bit. are there many home games in the area or anything like that?

Talked earlier to a friend out in LA who works near the WPT main office and has a friend in the PR department there who is trying to get me in on the ground level. One time...?

I will be attending as long as Im awake at that time....

In reference to the omaha game at Snookers... I spoke to the Floor man and he mentioned that the reason he didnt want to run it was because of the amount of chips it takes to run the game. They are restricted to the amount of money they can put in play depending on the amount of charities running. I understand his point but I wish Snookers would run PLO or PLO8 on a regular basis....

Good luck, SD. Good use of your one time BTW.

I still don't get this. Why would it take any more chips than Holdem to run PLO 1/2? Doesn't make sense to me.

I think its because PLO games tend to play more deep stacked..... consider the avg chip stack at a 1/2 NLHE table and then compare that to a 1/2 PLO or PLO8 game.

I could be wrong about this, but that is what I think the Floor Man was talking about.

Either way, PLO games are way more fun than 1/2 NLHE ( in my opinion)

Well, it makes sense for PLO just because there are so many big pots and rebuys, and before ya know it, guys are sitting with $1,000. Gambit, if you want I can keep ya posted on anytime we plan on running PLO8 at Snookers.

Recruit more charities?

I'm still learning my way around MI charity poker -- are rooms like Snookers limited on $ of chips, or is it just a limit per-charity?

Years later, the NLHE boom is still a mixed blessing. If NLHE and anything else compete for scarce resources, NLHE is going to win unless there's a really awesome case to be made otherwise.

nlhe is just so much easier to make good money at.

charity poker rooms are limited to selling 15k in chips a day, so a big omaha game will max out a charity alone. and you can't add another charity because it has to be different chips and completely seperate.

Well, the bigger rooms manage multiple chip sets pretty well, but it would suck for the charity taking rake from one table of $5-10-20 PLO.

It just occurred to me that this is related to why charity rooms are the only ones with chip runners. They certainly don't want you keeping 3 rebuys in your pocket (like i sometimes do in casinos, because missing hands while at the cage is a pain).

Are you allowed to take a backpack into Motor City? I assume no, since i've never seen any in the poker room, just thought id ask.