I haven't done the research but it sounds very hard if not impossible to convict a player.
The players would argue they made a good faith mistake of fact that they were playing in a social game. THey should succeed because they are not getting any of the rake.

An easier example is if someone was running a 3 card monte hustle. Do you think they could arrest and convict the victims?

The question is not if the the police would or should -- but if it's illegal, which is most definitely is. I wouldn't have bothered to explain it again, but CAT wants to troll the topic here because it's all-quiet on the Lee front until the next week or two.

I suspect, for example, that room busts in town will continue to check players for wants and warrants and send them home (like they just did with The Nuts) -- but there's a small part of me that thinks if they bust a player multiple times at multiple room closures he might find himself charged.

It's only a show-up-and-pay-the-fine sort of thing, honestly, so I'm not losing any sleep about it.

I didn't mean police discretion, that part is an obvious NO. They might even lose money on criminal charges for players I did mean actual criminal law, I still am not sure it could be a crime. But yes it could easily be a civil fine.

So I thought I'd check out Ft. McDowell on Saturday night since it's been several months since I was there and I hadn't seen the revamped room yet. I called at about 8:30 and they said there were 4 tables going of 3-6 or 4-8 LHE. They also said there was a $20 rebuy tournament starting at 9pm and that the cash games tended to pick up after that. I heard that FM was getting occasional 4-8 HORSE or 6-12 LHE as recently as last year and so hoped that maybe one of these games would get started during the course of the evening. I also heard about the 20-40 mix going Mon/Fri so I thought maybe the room is having a revival of sorts.

I couldn't have been more mistaken. There are now just 10 tables in the enclosed poker room but they certainly don't seem to need that many. I got there just as the tournament was kicking off. There were just 2 cash tables going of 4-8 LHE along with a few tournament tables. I stayed and played in a 4-8 and spoke with some of the dealers and players. No one seemed to have heard anything about any HORSE game, any spread limit or any limit game over 4-8 in recent history. I stayed until about 1am and a third cash table never started.

I was amazed that they were only able to get 2 cash game tables going on Saturday night. This place has really fallen off the map. I remember just a few years ago they were still getting 5-150 games going. They don't even have their mega jackpot anymore...just a pitiful bad beat jackpot for a few K and some everlasting AA cracked promo. They did confirm that a 20/40 stud8/omaha8 mix has been going on Mon and Fri and it's only $3/half hour to play. It seems like the one bright spot in an otherwise sad relic of what used to be the top room in Arizona.

I may go back to try out that mix game one of these days. I can't think of any other reason to go there.

the $20 tourney sounds like a fun shovefest. Do you know what the rake was?

Not sure, sorry

Regarding the $20 tournament, I played in it once last year and it is the worst tournament you will ever play in. Rake was horrible. $20 gets you a certain amount of chips. I forget, but let's say 2K. For an additional $10, you get an additional 2K. And you can rebuy for the full 4K at any time for $20. So shovefest is an understatement. No one is folding their straight draw when they can reload for $20.

It gets better though. At the end of the first 2 hours or so, they have an add on for $40 or $50. Gets you $20K or $25K in chips. It has the effect of leveling the entire playing field after 2 hours of play. And the blinds at that point are of the 1K/2K or 2K/4K variety. And double every level thereafter.

Really really poor structure. Unfortunately it draws in a bunch of people because it is so cheap so they'll likely run it forever. No reason for them to switch to a better structure if they keep filling up tables.

@ the end of 2 hours no more rebuys right? I it already!

No rebuys after 2 hours. Correct. Go crazy.

Hey sports fans! Judge Lee trials starts 1/26 (Thursday) tomorrow. In case you've been living under a rock for the past seven years, Lee is the "pied piper of Arizona card rooms" and his case hinges on the use of the button fee, a voluntary "rake" that players donate to the house before any gambling activity takes place.

Lee's case is also the first to be tried at the state level, and the first case where a defendant hasn't plead to lessor charges. Previous "poker war" cases resulted in plea bargains in Scottsdale and the case against Club Royale in Tucson was dismissed.

Pop some fresh corn... at 10:30 am Central Court Building Maricopa Superior Room 702 we have a hearing where the exact limitations of the State's draconian motion in limine is determined. Can Lee bring in the BIA or ADoG or the 1831 coup that empowered the BIA into the defense as it applies to his motivations or intent? 10:30 will decide that.

Then bring on the hot dogs and chips... at 1:30, the jury panel will be called in. State's evidence should be heard and possible rested same day. Judge Lee's defense should start then on Friday, and the cease and desists should rain down on Monday. Anti-poker crusaders rejoice... till the appeal, which Lee wins but no fanfare is made of that. Par for the course. Pass the popcorn. The Nuts charges are levied following Lee's conviction and slap on the wrist for a first offender on his last legs of life anyway. Another raid each year as card rooms try to expand and grow while flying under the radar, not making too much noise, and becoming the biggest or most popular... perhaps the ADoG goes after a non-profit card room next. ADoG MO is now take a back seat. Precedent has been set. Dealers take a tip? That's benefit. Class 3 Felony. Ouch. I miss my civil rights.

I might be done with training by noon. Should be fun.

Who's an anti-poker crusader?

It usually takes most of the afternoon to pick the jury. You should expect most of the evidence to come in the second day.

1030 Monday we start. Trial will last 2-3 days probably, though the court is allowing till Friday.

You are. Anti civil rights and anti poker. But you don't understand that The Palimax. Yet anyway.

I'm very much in favor of poker. I spend a lot of my own money and time providing a nice clean game for others.

I'm just not in favor of profiteering lawbreakers masquerading as avengers.

20-40 game at Wild Horse last night. We were playing 8-16 3 handed and decided to change to 20-40. Around the time I went broke, 2 new players sat down, so I assume the game continued for a while.

It's the first time I've seen a game above 8-16 go there since I started going there about 15 months ago.

I'd like to see random games above 8/16 break out places.



Speaking of which, I will be at Fort McDowell this weekend.

What games usually go on weekend evenings these days?

Any hope of getting a limit game above 4/8 or any NL type games?

I will be bringing enough to play up to 20/40 if anyone would like to.

I've played on a Friday night and a few Saturday nights up there over the last several months since the poker room remodel and its only been 4-8 running outside of the tournaments! Even when the tourney breaks down people just playing 3-6 and 4-8 only the last few months on my visits...

Early last year there was the 1-2 Spread game but haven't even seen that run my last few visits, just fyi

Thanks for the info. I'll try my hardest to get something, anything going higher than that. Offer to play HU, offer to drink a beer per dealer down, who knows. I could obv live with a 1/2 spread and take it semi seriously. But 4/8...

I've been watching the bravopokerlive app to see whats going there, and yes, I've seen 4/8 hold'em and Omaha and nothing higher. At least they don't appear to allow 2/4.

I agreed to give up poker for a month in exchange for only having to tell my fiance my results once a month thereafter. However, when I start playing again, I'd be happy to contribute to any 6-12 to 20-40 games that go outside of casino AZ. I don't think FM gets anything outside of the mon/fri mix game.

I went to Vee Quiva a few weeks ago and started a list for 8-16. They erased my name without even telling me so I guess they're not interested in the idea.

My Fort McDowell Trip:

Friday
Drove up after work and went out to dinner in Fountain Hills with the wife.

Went to the hotel at the casino and hung out until she went to sleep.

I went to the poker room to play. They had 10 tables, 3 were used for tourney, 2-3 for 3/6 and 4/8 lhe, and there was surprisingly a 1/2 NL/Spread Limit game. There were 7 people or so in it when I arrived at 10:45, and I played it until 2:15am. I was up over $500 at one time, but due to my drinking and a few suckouts, I left with a small $36 profit.

Observations from that evening:
10oz beers were $1 but 14 oz beers were $3 (I had 12 of the 10oz over my session)
They did time rake for their 1/2 game, $3 per half hour!!!! (compared to $7 at CAZ high limit games)
I even got to play 3 handed for quite a bit near the end.
When we were 3 handed, some guy tried to sit down with like $70 bucks and the other two guys put up a fit saying minimum buy-in was $100 and we shouldn't be laying him 5:1 on our money, etc. I said I didn't care, the guy tried to sit, and the other 2 started to rack up. I sighed, floor was called, and the other guy went to one of the limit games.

I played some BJ after that, betting quite a bit, but ending up with a $25 profit after a nice $500 comeback.


Saturday
Went out to breakfast in Fountain Hills, then went hiking around Saguaro Lake, like a 5 mile hike, took like 2.5 hours, it was beautiful out. Afterwards we grabbed lunch at the casino (first time my wife entered it on our trip, and she was very happy we didn't eat breakfast there, way too smokey for her). We then hung out at the pool for a bit, then I showered and hit up the casino.

At 6pm all that was going was 3/6 and 4/8, so I put myself on lists including 8/16 hold'em, 10/20 mix, and 1/2 spread, and nothing got off the ground so I sat in a boring 4/8 and lost $70. Highlights included me c/r an obviously large multiway pot out of the blinds with KT on a T76 board and betting turn/river which were undercards (like a 3 then a 2) and being sigh called on the river by 66 "straight is good" after a guy called inbetween us with QT. I just loled.

As I was cashing out, the floor from the night before asked where I was going, I said dinner, and he asked the buffet, I said yes, and he comped me another buffet (already had one with the free hotel room), so dinner at the buffet for me and my wife was covered.

The buffet wasn't very impressive, small selection (but tons of crab legs as that is their selling point) and the people were quite the pigs piling 4 and 5 groups of crab legs on their plates (each group had 3-4 legs attached).

Afterwards I played for another 2 hours of 4/8 (nothing higher started again), hit some hands and valuebet everyone to death (they were super impressed when I valuebet 33 on a T5346 board, and mhig), and profited a rack. Other lol hand when I threebet an openers raise with JJ, bet bet bet a T high board, and folded to the river raise, he had lol played KK.

Had a decent time, but the limit poker was mind numbingly boring. 1/2 rake is obviously insanely good, as is the $1 10oz beers. But unless I can be sure a 1/2 or a 8/16+ game is going, I likely won't be returning.

Not too Thinly Veiled Brag IMO

Good TR. I'd go to the Ft if it were closer.

Clean game except for that nasty mandatory rake for your WSOP seat satellite tournament rigged in your favor with unfair advantage. I find it amusing you now find it necessary to use adjectives; "nice" "clean" game... Haha and the icing: "for others". Lol'd i did. But that's all old news.

Avenge this: your amateur game isnt my cup of tea, nor is the Class III Jackpot Poker played at all Valley BIA casinos. Where can a poker player find a game (1) with a professional dealer that (2) doesnt rake for random chance bad beat jackpots? In other words, can a playa find a nice Class I or Class II game of poker, where the players aren't the dealer?

I used to play at the Fort but it was all 3/6 games and cheap, shovefest tourneys. Haven't been there in at least 2 yrs. Wouldn't surprise me that it has completely died.

Now I play 4/8 at CAZ and occassionally take a shot at the 8/16. I already posted this in the other forum but I heard the games are much, much better at Wild Horse Pass. Is it worth going there to play 8/16 (or even 4/8) rather than at CAZ? For me it's a 5 min drive to CAZ vs. 30 min drive to WHP.

IMO slightly better 8/16 game at wHP. Caz has a greater ceiling though because it gets more visitors.