Hahaha, am I tapping the glass a bit too hard for your liking?

A little context would be appreciated...

Actually, I only play 45 turbos on Stars... am still learning, but am a pretty decent winner... over a decent 12.5k game sample... despite running well below chip ev for the last 600k hands or so in these things.

I could provide you with some giraffes, but honestly, what's the point?

So, to help clarify for me: you guys are perfectly okay with 3b/folding at the t50 level? Where the average stack is pretty close to 30bb?

When is it +ev to 3b/f w/less than a 30bb stack?

More specifically, when do you not have the odds to call a 4bet, after you have 3bet w/less than 30bb?

I think OP is looking for generalized responses; something he can take, use, and apply all the time... and then from that point, decide when an exception occurs.

You trying to throw in an exception (which I'm not convinced even exists in this situation) is probably accomplishing nothing more than confusing the OP on some turbo SNG fundamentals... which is was looking for help with in the first place?

I don't think I've posted anything in this thread that I haven't given a reason for... please be kind and do the same...

Fold. If you think he is shoving a8 and min rasing aq its better to fold.

Dude, a bit harsh, I mean once a week people want to fold Kings preflop.

Dolivo its a decent player. He is wron in that one but i saw worst posts in 2+2, specialy from mc.

I'm definitely not saying I'm right. But the bolded line is ridiculous. Of course there are times when we should be 3bet/folding with <30BB. This is relatively deep and being able to throw out some bluffs in certain situations can be really profitable.

When I posted I kinda knew I would get berated.... but surely it's at least close and worth considering. OP wouldn't have posted if it wasn't an interesting hand. Just saying "easy shove" (not necessarily aimed at you) is not helpful to OP, and we should be at least considering the validity of other options.

And 3betting at BB50 is SO different to 3betting ITM. I'm sure I don't even have to say why... (even if we do have the same #BBs)

People should not be berating you cause your point is valid. This hand is not a "easy shove". IMO shove its the worst option. I can see a 3 bet/fold vs some villains but i prefere just fold. Whats the point in having the 2 big stacks in the table coliding? Give free equity to the short stacks?

Okie doke... first off... I am just looking to improve... and open to anything.

The bolded statement wasn't a directed insult... but what I thought to be a standard axiom for any winning strategy in 45-man turbos. I was trying to make the foundation of my comments clear.

I believe that I showed I am open to other possibilites when I asked for an example of when it is correct to 3b/f with a stack < 30 bb.

Here you said you knew you would be berated for that remark; and then said of course there are spots... yet still have not shown one? Let alone one that happens often enough for never 3b/f with a stack <30 bb to be an error?

That is what I want to hear about, so we can both improve...

And to your last comment about differences between 3b'ing in the early game vs. ITM... the only difference I can think of is that I have more fold equity in the same snapshot situation (in terms of bbs) if we are ITM vs. the early game... I think one can generally say that all other factors being equal, if you get extra fold equity, you get extra profitability with your 3b.

At least im not a breakeven creepy stalking sngdonk as u.

Well shouldnt be hard to figure out... Theres plenty of spots where to 3b/f with less than 30bb. Ill make sure to PM u at least one hand from my session later where I 3b/fold with less than 30bb.

Looking forward to the PM, but why not post the hand here instead? ...so others can learn as well.

That being said, as of this moment: I have asked for examples, and you have given none... as such, I do not think you have made a very good case for 3b/f with < 30bb.

Don't let your pride get in the way of growing your game and bankroll...

Look to his comments itt and you have your answer : http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/19...ns-ft-1213338/

At least im not BE! and im at least not a losing player with 3k$ loses on fulltilt! But hey, gl bro. Seems like u need it more than i do:-)

Keep just 3bet/get it in for less than 30bb! Rly good!

I see now, 3bet/fold with less than 30bb is silly. Wtf was i thinking... lol are u guys for real?

Example:
100/50

Btn 3000
Sb 2450
Hero 2940

Btn raise to 200, sb folds, hero?

Dont tell me u dont have a 3bet/f range here!

Never played in full tilt. At least tell the true. BE? lolol, you are funny

I do not have a 3b/f range there. I 3b (shove) or fold. To 3b/f there as you suggest is a horrible spew IMO...

So what; you 3b to 700, and fold to his jam? ...and call that the optimal play?

How do you not have 37.7% equity with the hand you 3b (to call vs. his 4b range)?

For real... easy to see how his post count is so high... would be pretty amazed if even 10% of those posts had value to people trying to learn.

Wow, i give up. Gl

Wauw tards itt. Not ofteb agreeing with mc but not having a 3b/f range, just wow

Bro, i know you from tables and i think you are a decent player but in this one you are completely wrong. You can have a 3bet/fold range with less than 30bbs...even with less tha 15 in some spots.

In this particular hand I dont like the shove option cause you are losing zilions of equity to the short stacks when villain has a real hand. He probably is opening 100% of is range here anf fold to your shove a lot but shove so many bbs its not optimal. I fold in this spot even knowing iam probably ahead. Even if i win the flip vs him its not my equity who is going to increase substancial. Most of the equity will be spread for the short stacks.

^wow so ur going from telling me i suck to agree with me, lolololol! At least u learn fast i see! Gl

this thread speaks volumes to the current state of strat threads on 2+2

Quote:
Originally Posted by fidstar-poker
Dude, a bit harsh, I mean once a week people want to fold Kings preflop.

Dolivo its a decent player. He is wron in that one but i saw worst posts in 2+2, specialy from mc.

As usual you just hit nd run. At least tell us what is the best line here...

I raise fold like literally 1k times a day and I have over 30bigs like 10 times a day after antes. Its called exploiting players who dont reshove a balanced range. Example folded to you on the button with 89suited with 10bb effective. Shoving is +ev however the blinds are passive random players that have rarely raised. So theres a more +ev line So we raise planning to c bet every flop except maybe akq and giving up on most turns. However unfontunately this time they shove us, we gained ev with are raise here but we dont gain ev by calling a tight player here so we make a great fold. Seems pretty simple to me Obviously vs perfect regulars we want to shove a balanced range but thats not always best

Heres another food for thought im on your right and am raising 80% of my buttons 60% of my cutoffs 25bbeff. How do you make money? you need like ak/99+ to get it in vs me pre. I just fold and lose 2bigs when you have it and steal your blinds or have initiative postflop the other 95% of the time. You really need a 3bet bluff range so I 4 bet bluff and you an get it in wider.

edit - woops I Got confused about what the thread was about lol im tired I thought it was you wouldn't raise fold so the first example doesint work the second one does but no so much for the lvl of games your playing . I kinda understand why your getting this from your perspective because I played a bunch of 45 a few months ago to get supernova. Pre ante like any sng is just waiting for the nuts and getting it in not 3 betting anything but nuts. Then icm kicks in almost immediately and its pretty unnessasry. But if your getting it in 15-30 bb effective really wide with the huge icm in these that feels like a leak to me.