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Ask me anything about 180s for the next week (at least) Ask me anything about 180s for the next week (at least)

09-05-2011 , 12:44 AM
Hey guys, as a fair amount of you know, I've been doing a video series on a well known training site for the 180 turbo sngs on PokerStars. I'm not going to say which one/answer this ITT since that would be considered advertising/against the rules and that's obviously not the intention of the thread.

I have a pretty small sample personally (like 2.5K) but I've done a fair amount of successful coaching, my video series and coached the famous camzace from a 180 newbie to crushing in less than 6 months. Shout out to camzace and congratulations to him once again

Spoiler:


In short, I don't really play much at all myself. Wayyyyyy too lazy mostly, and in New Zealand the peak hours are like 5AM-Noon or so and this doesn't work well with my university schedule (and my sleep schedule). However, this week I've left home (Auckland) for a road trip with camzace and another friend who is also learning the 180s.. I will do some coaching with a few students and just relax ^^ .. The final episode in my series is about to come out shortly, and being on holiday out of town with camzace during a semester break (as rare as breaks are), I feel this is a good time to give a little back to the community, as they say...

For the next week (at least) I will be happy to answer almost any question about the 180s. I will do my best to help anyone with any question, but keep in mind I don't claim to be a God/know it all at these - so no promises, but I can certainly help with most questions etc and again will try my best I guess what I'm saying is this thread is mostly intended for those who are learning the 180s etc, as opposed to good regs trying to get even better or whatever.. Also, I won't go into details of my specific ranges or questions on other specific regs..

Good luck all

Greetings from Ninety Mile Beach, Ahipara, New Zealand
I took these photos just now, literally, and the weather is kinda bad. I'll try get a better photo of the view etc, it's quite nice here. This was taken from the balcony so there is some stuff in the way of a pure view too I guess.


Spoiler:

jb181 and camzace

Last edited by OMGClayDol; 09-05-2011 at 12:53 AM.
09-05-2011 , 03:29 AM
Thanks for doing this!

I'll think of some better questions later, but I've been up all night and these are all that spring to mind right now:

1) thoughts on playing AK preflop at t20 and t30? In and out of position, vs regs and vs randoms, HU and multiway, suited and unsuited?

2) how much lighter in general will you get it in during the rebuy period of a $3.50? For example, vs an open shove of 3k at t20, or in a 3-4 way all-in.


3) what are the main differences that you notice between the $3.5r/$8 and the $15? I do well at the former but badly at the latter, admittedly over a short sample because I tend to get spanked pretty hard every time I take a shot. Do you play these levels differently to each other or treat them similarly? Does this extend to the $35s?

4) you're on the BTN in an unopened pot with 10 adjusted BBs and reasonably tight randoms in the blinds. What's your default shoving range?

5) at what point do you tend to switch over from cEV decisions to $EV ones? Do you consider the 180 bubble to be the defacto bubble or do you wait until the FT before giving ICM some respect?


Edit: oops! Sorry, like I said it's late. Didn't read the OP properly so feel free to ignore the more specific ranges questions.
09-05-2011 , 03:42 AM
Do you use a Hud when playing?

how many buy-in's in your bank roll would you suggest i should have if i'm going to play 45/90/180 man's on line and prob playing up to 10 tables at a time

I know this is not 180 man but what do you think of this spot?

what do u think no reads just got to the table.... couple of spots like this should 6's be a fold in this spot

Entraction - €0.50+0.05|100/200 NL (10 max) - Holdem - 8 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

CO: 2,662.00
BTN: 4,175.00
SB: 8,710.00
BB: 3,500.00
UTG: 2,809.00
UTG+1: 8,060.00
MP: 5,005.00
Hero (MP+1): 3,365.00

SB posts SB 100.00, BB posts BB 200.00

Pre Flop: (300.00) Hero has 6 6

UTG raises to 575.00, UTG+1 calls 575.00, fold, Hero raises to 3,365.00 and is all-in, fold, fold, fold, fold, UTG calls 2,234.00 and is all-in, fold

Flop: (6493.00, 2 players) 2 7 5

Turn: (6493.00, 2 players) 3

River: (6493.00, 2 players) K

Spoiler:
UTG shows A A (One Pair, Aces) (PreFlop 80%, Flop 88%, Turn 86%)
Hero shows 6 6 (One Pair, Sixes) (PreFlop 20%, Flop 12%, Turn 14%)
UTG wins 6,493.00




prob have some other questions later

thanks in advance
09-05-2011 , 03:56 AM
Whats a sustainable roi in 15/180s atm?

Where abouts in Auckland do you live?
09-05-2011 , 04:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigPig
Whats a sustainable roi in 15/180s atm?

Where abouts in Auckland do you live?
I would assume for good regs (obviously including yourself) around 20% should still be doable, possibly higher but obviously with ridiculous variance it's hard to be certain.. Maybe up to 25% maximum I would guess but probably not higher. This is obviously on the higher side and for the better regs, otherwise around 15% is more realistic/safe to aim for etc I guess.. If you never tilt, are pretty good with your system/set up (no misclicks etc!) and no internet disconnection/problems this helps a lot imo. Not saying any high volume regs have any of these problems but imo if you are perfect in all of these it will probably mean at least a 1-2% roi difference over the average reg.

Games in general, from my understanding, got "significantly" softer after Black Friday and have since been steadily getting slightly tougher (not ridiculous or anything). It's probably around similar to just before black friday now although as you might know more and more training sites/stables for 180s are coming out etc slowly.. Also you know, $15 is obviously higher than $12, so the increase in the buy in itself leads to a pretty nice/significant expected hourly, since the competition doesn't really change with the increase in buy in from 12-15.

Centralish. You still in Dunedin? Feel free to add me on Skype/PM etc if you want to talk or anything, I can be a bit more specific with location too lol.
09-05-2011 , 04:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by deadstack
Do you use a Hud when playing?

how many buy-in's in your bank roll would you suggest i should have if i'm going to play 45/90/180 man's on line and prob playing up to 10 tables at a time

I know this is not 180 man but what do you think of this spot?

what do u think no reads just got to the table.... couple of spots like this should 6's be a fold in this spot

Entraction - €0.50+0.05|100/200 NL (10 max) - Holdem - 8 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

CO: 2,662.00
BTN: 4,175.00
SB: 8,710.00
BB: 3,500.00
UTG: 2,809.00
UTG+1: 8,060.00
MP: 5,005.00
Hero (MP+1): 3,365.00

SB posts SB 100.00, BB posts BB 200.00

Pre Flop: (300.00) Hero has 6 6

UTG raises to 575.00, UTG+1 calls 575.00, fold, Hero raises to 3,365.00 and is all-in, fold, fold, fold, fold, UTG calls 2,234.00 and is all-in, fold

Flop: (6493.00, 2 players) 2 7 5

Turn: (6493.00, 2 players) 3

River: (6493.00, 2 players) K

Spoiler:
UTG shows A A (One Pair, Aces) (PreFlop 80%, Flop 88%, Turn 86%)
Hero shows 6 6 (One Pair, Sixes) (PreFlop 20%, Flop 12%, Turn 14%)
UTG wins 6,493.00




prob have some other questions later

thanks in advance
Yes, usually. My ideal set up would have a HUD but it would be pretty simple, mainly just hand/sample size + vpip/pfr. The main purpose of a HUD in 180s I feel is to simply distinguish between a regular and a random, the difference between a 10/9 and a 14/13 is rarely going to make a difference in my decision making, and as I've said in a couple of threads already I feel often these stats can be misinterpreted since obviously these unfiltered stats will include hands from 10/20 to the highest blinds (2500/5000+).. Therefore, often some less experience players will make the mistake of looking at a typical regs stats of 12/10 (give or take) and assume he is tight, even when he shoves post ante, which is often incorrect because most good regs have pretty tight stats overall. Many/most good regs with stats of 12/10 or even tighter will actually be shoving very wide post ante (as they should be) and again I think this is a common mistake.

Even more problematic are stats like 3b% which some people seem to over apply very significantly. This stat takes a pretty big sample (like upper hundreds at least) to be remotely "accurate" and even then, similarly unfiltered it includes ALL hands 10/20 and higher.- {remember even 1k hands on a single reg would take many games to accumulate since you obviously don't actually get on the same table as every reg every tourney, etc}
Basically 95%+ of regs (and I would advise this too) do not 3-bet light/as a bluff at the early stages, esp 10/20.. Because of this if you have say 300 hands on a typical reg at 10/20 blind levels, his 3b% will be like 3-4% or something.. This isn't really accurate when combined with the later stage stats since the good regs who aren't 3betting light will now be reshoving fairly wide. I have heard various students talk about how they decided to call pretty light to a reshove because a guys 3b% on their HUD was 17% over 50 hands or something - which is sometimes 1/5 opportunities (!!!)

Anyway, you can certainly use other stats but I feel vpip/pfr is sufficient, and maybe M or BB if you aren't quick with numbers. When someone like me 30+ tables I rarely have time to look deeper into stats, by position etc or whatever... So it wouldn't be too practical, and I think most regs are in the same position. I also don't really know if you can filter by blind level, in which case it might be somewhat useful, but I still am not fully convinced I'd use such stats if they were filterable. Sorry for that answer being so long..

The number of tables doesn't really affect how many buy ins you should have directly - assuming the same roi your chance of going bust over x sample will be the same whether you play 1 or 20 tables simultaneously - although obviously playing more tables may reduce your roi which would affect your chances of going on a downswing etc. I don't really know too much about the 45s or 90s, but they are somewhat similar to 180s in terms of variance and as a general rule it depends on a few factors - such as if you are willing to move down if you drop x amount, and of course if you are able to reload if necessary. If you can afford to be a bit more aggressive with bankroll management (can reload, don't have bills to pay etc) then it's fine to play with 100BI or even less, as long as you can understand that you will likely have to reload/move down stakes (not possible if you are already playing the lowest I guess). If you want to be really safe assuming you are winning decently then probably 250+ of your average buy in. Obviously the lower your roi is, the more buy ins you need to be safe since it's more likely you go on a downswing etc.. Even the best players have had huge downswings, and smaller ones (like 100+) regularly. Average buy in obviously depends what you play, e.g. if you just play 2.50s then it's 2.5, if you play 2.5s and 8s then average is maybe around 5 (remember 2.5s load a bit faster than 8s, etc).

The hand depends on reads, and pay structure. E.g. if it's the bubble or whatever this is pretty clear fold etc. Generally with no reads I would fold and probably say like 88+ AQo AJs at a guess, maybe 99+ AQo if you wanna be a bit more conservative. I think on average you have some fold equity, but definitely not much - although there is some dead money which gives you pot odds/overlay. The UTG range is generally a bit tighter/stronger as you know, with this stack size he shouldn't fold too often.
09-05-2011 , 05:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazillion
Thanks for doing this!

I'll think of some better questions later, but I've been up all night and these are all that spring to mind right now:

1) thoughts on playing AK preflop at t20 and t30? In and out of position, vs regs and vs randoms, HU and multiway, suited and unsuited?

2) how much lighter in general will you get it in during the rebuy period of a $3.50? For example, vs an open shove of 3k at t20, or in a 3-4 way all-in.


3) what are the main differences that you notice between the $3.5r/$8 and the $15? I do well at the former but badly at the latter, admittedly over a short sample because I tend to get spanked pretty hard every time I take a shot. Do you play these levels differently to each other or treat them similarly? Does this extend to the $35s?

4) you're on the BTN in an unopened pot with 10 adjusted BBs and reasonably tight randoms in the blinds. What's your default shoving range?

5) at what point do you tend to switch over from cEV decisions to $EV ones? Do you consider the 180 bubble to be the defacto bubble or do you wait until the FT before giving ICM some respect?


Edit: oops! Sorry, like I said it's late. Didn't read the OP properly so feel free to ignore the more specific ranges questions.
Sweet as, thanks for that and feel free to ask anything anytime - same goes to anyone else.

1) Don't have anything too revolutionary to add to this in general I guess but I'll say what comes to mind. Firstly, a commonish mistake that some less experienced players seem to have is always 3-bet/4-bet/etc getting it in with AK, this is usually going to bad in a number of spots because if a good reg opens UTG and you 3-bet from basically any position their continuing range is going to be AK QQ at widest (and often tighter, if they are "really" good - since they should realise at 10/20 if they open utg and a reg 3-bets them QQ shouldn't be doing well against that range, not that I blame going broke with QQ in such spots).... Against that range you have around 40% equity, so it's generally better to flat, since that way, especially in position, you can do well vs. hands like AQ in their range (and maybe AJs). Not really too much else to say I guess? But typically I don't really love 3-betting it vs. regs unless it's a late-ish position raise. Even vs. randoms, I'm not 100% sure if I like 3-betting too much oop just because they call fairly often and when they do and you miss, your stack is pretty damage if it goes from 1500->1200 or even worse.. Obviously you will get a decent amount of value when you hit fairly often too. Heads Up I would be careful when to c-bet, e.g. flops that smash a preflop calling range like QdTdx (even if you have overs + gutter) you will rarely get a fold, so you will often c-bet, get called, have to give up and kinda damage your stack.. Also, vs. huge calling stations, c-bet less as a "bluff" (i.e. if you missed) and I guess tend to c-bet a bit less OOP too. Probably sometimes check when you have decent showdown value too. Multiway I would generally rarely c-bet as a bluff/if I miss.. When you have 1500, raise to 60-80 then c-bet for like 150 or whatever and have to give up you have like 1200 which is somewhat significantly less. Also obviously more likely someone hit. And generally you always have some chance of getting to showdown with the best hand

Finally, I generally would jam in spots where you are never 3/b folding and getting flatted by a random would suck. E.g. HJ opens 60, CO calls, BTN calls, SB calls, you have AK in the BB I would just jam. A standard 3b would be like at least 25% of a 1500 starting stack and as you know randoms will still flat etc (although you can obviously jam a lot of flops)... But, you will still get called all the time by hands you dominate, AQ AJ and depending on how random the randoms are virtually atc sometimes, as I'm sure you would have seen..

-

In general, a fair amount lighter. I am typically finding it fine to almost snap call AQo for a 3k stack vs. non regs open shoving now (especially if I'm in BB so no one is left to act) because randoms just shove almost literally ATC). There are a LOT of randoms who like to just shove anything and gamble, and rebuy so you do well vs. a wide range etc.. Also, if you can "handle" the variance I think taking some gambles, even if neutral cEV or SLIGHTLY -cEV is probably fine given a skill edge/factor, getting a big stack earlier etc is good for us for future spots, if we get deeper quicker we can get in good spots later vs. other deep (weak) players etc - hopefully that part makes sense. After the early stages where people stop just open shove gambling (at least way less) I probably don't really get it in that much lighter in general, although slight adjustments especially towards the end of the rebuy/addon period would probably be correct since as you can imagine people are willing to gamble during this time, probably. Truth is I probably don't really have the time to look at the exact situation/time of the tourney of the 3.5rs when I'm 30+ tabling, or I would probably adjust a bit more in being a bit wider..

-

The 3.5rs even though the average buy in is 11~ are particularly soft, imo, for two reasons I believe. Firstly, being a rebuy people tend to stack off way lighter cause they can rebuy etc, as discussed above. Secondly, the fact it's a 3.5 rebuy means that anyone can just buy in for 3.5 (and not rebuy, etc) and some do. These fish will sometimes get lucky, get a stack etc, and at the late game play just as poorly, so the fields are a bit softer in general... Also, less regs play them because they take longer, and during peak times, some regs who don't want to play 20 or more tables etc will load 8/15s and not 3.5rs. The 8s are generally softer than the 15s, but not that significantly. IN general I don't think I make any different plays between them in the same situations, e.g. being more willing to go broke with top pair in a spot in the 8s or something. Obviously if the 15s have relatively more stronger regs, then there are on average more spots where I'll adjust my shove/calling ranges based on the number of regs on my table etc, but being on the CO with 10BB vs 2 regs and 1 random behind is the same situation for me in the 8s and the 15s. Don't think 8s/15s have a big difference in general. Most of the regs who play the 15s play the 8s too and the fish aren't too different.. 35s I feel almost the same, once again probably a slightly less favourable ratio of fish to regs but more or less the same game. The 35s seem to have a fair amount of Mid Stakes+ MTT regs who play only the 35s to be mixed with their MTT sessions though. Let the sample size ride, play some more and run a little better, I'm sure you will crush

-

Not really familiar with how adjusted BBs works. 10BBs pre ante as a default vs tightish RANDOMS probably like 22 A2o K6s Q9o JTo 76s etc ish, around 30% basically. Haven't checked this on wiz for a while to be honest though. Post antes 10BBs I shove ATC vs tightish randoms, and adjusted I'd assume it would equal to almost the same, depending on what that means exactly lol.

-

I don't really apply/consider ICM AS MUCH as some of the regs do. But I think it's definitely important and a factor to consider. I generally advise somewhere in between cEV and $EV on the final table, especially once it gets shorter handed (like 3 is way more important than say 9 for example). Maybe on a scale from 1-10 with 1 being 100% cEV and 10 being 100% $EV, I'd say like 6-7.. As you know ICM calculations have a few problems, e.g. if we are UTG with a short stack our equity sucks a bit more than it says etc etc since we are about to be blinded/lose fold equity. Same with where we are positioned (e.g. if a huge monster stack is on our direct right). I typically consider the bubble a little, but not thaaat much. Like I might meh/fold a bad Ax to a wide shover in the BB vs. a SB, BTN, etc shove if I have 10BBs and it's the exact bubble - especially if a 2BB stack is visible on the table etc, but that's about it.

The final table bubble, kinda similar but I'm kinda meh. Once we are on the final table I consider it a bit, and more so towards the final 4, 3 etc.. Don't know exactly how to describe this but I guess if there are significant short stacks etc then yes I will call tighter vs. big stacks which have me covered, and I will push tighter into them too of course.. I will generally not really fold AK and stuff unless it's extreme situations where it's really ICM suicide (and even then I don't know for sure )

Last edited by OMGClayDol; 09-05-2011 at 05:19 AM.
09-05-2011 , 05:23 AM
Least favorite reg to play HU?

At what point do you feel your sample size will become 'significant?'
09-05-2011 , 05:26 AM
Hey bro!

I have a few que:

1) Always call odds like 1.8,1.9,2.0?

2) Do you push 90-100% of time any2 BvB(you >10bb or BB >10bb)?

3) Yours push range form HJ,CO and BTN 7-10bb no ante?

THX and GL
09-05-2011 , 05:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by acbarone
Least favorite reg to play HU?

At what point do you feel your sample size will become 'significant?'
Sample too small, I don't think I've played any reg more than 2 times or whatever. Basically anyone good, probably the more agro the less favourite, even though that might mean I have am more +EV vs this guy then a guy who plays nash or fairly optimal ranges since I guess it's somewhat annoying?

I don't really know lol, I think 6K I would be fairly comfortable in saying I am "for sure" a decent winner (depending on the roi etc I guess), the higher it gets the more accurate it is I guess? If I hadn't coached with success, etc, I wouldn't even be "sure" I'm a winner I guess :S
Really hope this doesn't sound arrogant, not that it should but just to be clear this isn't a brag AT ALL
09-05-2011 , 05:33 AM
What sort of stack size would you say is about right to switch to a push/fold game? The first poker book I ever read was Harrington, so I've always worked out M throughout a tourney, and have it in my HUD now. I'm comfortable with my M greater than 12 or so, because I can safely open/fold, and I'm fine with an M below 7 because I'm comfortable pushing or folding at that stack size. My problem is with an M of 7-12. Open/folding takes a massive chunk out of my stack, but the stack is too big to push. I find myself really tightening up with this kind of stack because I'm never certain what to do and tend to err on the side of folding, which I guess is the opposite of what I should be doing.

Longest question ever I know, but what are your thoughts?
09-05-2011 , 05:35 AM
Why don't you lose some weight?

Why is your taste in food terrible?

Would you rather have sex with a 15 year old dwarf who can't stop urinating or a 36 year old hermaphrodite with a slight cold?
09-05-2011 , 05:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ITIHolek
Hey bro!

I have a few que:

1) Always call odds like 1.8,1.9,2.0?

2) Do you push 90-100% of time any2 BvB(you >10bb or BB >10bb)?

3) Yours push range form HJ,CO and BTN 7-10bb no ante?

THX and GL
Sorry not really sure about the first question? I don't really use a "rule" where I call ATC, but I have a fair estimation of when the pot odds result in enough equity to call (specifically in the BB since you don't have to account for people behind), sometimes I will adjust this a little bit and take a SLIGHTLY -cEV call if for example it's really close and this way I get a looser table image -> people scared money will shove tighter in the future or whatever...

BvB don't want to go too specific into numbers/exact ranges but basically it depends on the reg. With 10BB or less I will shove ATC vs many randoms/tighter players but not against 80%+ of the regs (in which case I will push reasonably tight depending on what I think their calling ranges are - in most cases I think the regs who recognise me will not call that ridic wide since they should know I won't be shoving ATC, so this ultimately results in somewhat close ranges to nash vs. the better regs I guess)? With any number of BB it's the same I guess, adjust accordingly to your estimation of their range.

Once you get to a certain stack size vs. randoms I often prefer raise/small or limp/stab over shoving, even when shoving is profitable since if they are passive/tight enough this is more profitable. E.g. with antes, shoving 15BB with A2o is profitable but vs. a tight/passive guy it's better to limp/stab or raise small (and c-bet on good boards).. If you are lazy just use SNG wiz and look at the charts, you can click a button to see literally the break even point - see below for a couple of pics.. Usually 32o is the best hand to use for ATC since it has the worst equity unless vs. really tight calling ranges.

Last question I won't go into specific detail again, but definitely I will say that it is 100% very, very important to adjust your range according to the players behind you. If I have 10BB on the CO and all 3 behind are regs, my range will be significantly different to if all 3 behind are randoms. In general having a "default" range is good but it can lead to some mistakes like not adjusting. Similarly if it's bubble, or if I shoved last 3 hands in a row etc (bad table image) my ranges will change slightly..

Some regs will probably kill me for this but look at the image:
200/400 with antes, 10BB effective BvB ATC (i.e. 32o) is profitable (I put edge 0 btw, which is fine for these blind levels - but if you put a small edge it won't be that different), unless he calls 43% or more.. Look at pokerstove, type 43. When was the last time a random called that wide??? For heads up/bvb situations just click the button I pointed to in this picture, you can see a chart. I'm not 100% sure how to use it for multiway situations though lol - it would probably be a little complicated I would guess. For multiway just keep adjusting the ranges of the people behind to see how a tighter/looser range from each player/s would affect your recommended ranges..

Get sng wiz and learn to use it, then use it. I didn't really use it ever personally when I was learning to be honest, but now that I coach I recommend 99% of my students to as part of their learning process



Last edited by OMGClayDol; 09-05-2011 at 05:56 AM.
09-05-2011 , 05:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camzace
Why don't you lose some weight?

Why is your taste in food terrible?

Would you rather have sex with a 15 year old dwarf who can't stop urinating or a 36 year old hermaphrodite with a slight cold?
Cause I am perfect

You are wrong

Both > dwarf > hermaphrodite > a nice girl > neither, I guess. But very close
09-05-2011 , 05:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lollujo
What sort of stack size would you say is about right to switch to a push/fold game? The first poker book I ever read was Harrington, so I've always worked out M throughout a tourney, and have it in my HUD now. I'm comfortable with my M greater than 12 or so, because I can safely open/fold, and I'm fine with an M below 7 because I'm comfortable pushing or folding at that stack size. My problem is with an M of 7-12. Open/folding takes a massive chunk out of my stack, but the stack is too big to push. I find myself really tightening up with this kind of stack because I'm never certain what to do and tend to err on the side of folding, which I guess is the opposite of what I should be doing.

Longest question ever I know, but what are your thoughts?
Pre ante around 13 in GENERAL, although it's definitely find to raise/fold especially at around 13.. Post ante probably 15 or so, although again it's definitely fine to raise instead of just shove even if it's profitable to just shove (often it's better to raise instead of shove -> it's more profitable).
Typically the more regs there are behind, the less raising you should do with 12ish or less BBs pre ante, and I guess 16 post ante.. BvB vs good regs often you should just jam hands that are profitable to jam but you can't call a reshove with, like 76s for 14BB BvB or whatever (post ante)...

Sorry I generally don't use M that much. But as a general rule, remember that the more "reshove stacks" there are behind you, the less inclined you should be to open. Post ante with around 16 or less BBs players can reshove pretty wide.. So you should open a tighter range since you will pick up the dead money uncontested less often. E.g. if I am on the BTN with XY, with 14BB effective with the SB/BB, I won't raise very wide, but if it's like 20BB effective where they can't jam as wide in general then I'd be happier to raise a bit wider since they can't rejam that often (they can of course 3b small or flat etc, but that typically isn't a problem)..

If it's a situation where you don't want to shove your specific hand, a few behind have pretty standard reshove stack sizes (like 16 or less approx pre ante, as said) and your hand can't call a shove, generally don't open it (unless the players are all quite tight/random etc).. E.g. 16BB effective with everyone KTs Hijack or something like that. If the guys behind are regs, they should almost never be flatting with such stack sizes so if you are raising with the intention of folding to a jam when they have a perfect rejam situation (stack sizes, etc) then just fold to begin with (or shove if it's profitable) Hope that makes sense.

SNG Wiz helps too, sometimes you may be surprised, jamming 15BBs can be profitable with hands like JTs or whatever depending on positions etc.. If you aren't good with the program/estimating ranges, check out some equilibrium charts - kill everyone or holdemresources nash calculator (google it) to get some ideas of decent default ranges. Note these are almost never, if not literally never optimal (i.e. the BEST/most +EV) ranges, but they give you an ok idea of the hands you should definitely be fine to shove, since nash = unexploitable. People don't realise sometimes that post ante, 15BB isn't actually "that much" and often there isn't anything wrong with jamming for "this much".. That being said, usually, especially since most people treat it as being "deep" etc, it's better/more +EV to raise rather than just jam, even with unexploitably profitable hands to jam.
09-05-2011 , 05:59 AM
Cheers. I read Kill Everyone a few months ago and pretty much skipped over the equilibrium charts because they looked far too complicated to ever be useful to me. I'll go back and have another look.
09-05-2011 , 06:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lollujo
Cheers. I read Kill Everyone a few months ago and pretty much skipped over the equilibrium charts because they looked far too complicated to ever be useful to me. I'll go back and have another look.
They are quite simple actually, I understand this kind of thing looks off-putting but just figure out how to calculate M (or csi zone or whatever it's called). Then have a look to get an idea. Don't study it religiously or whatever, have a look to get an idea and refer to it as a rough guide when you are unsure about a hand. Holdemresources nash calculator is better because you can put everyones exact stack size (the charts just say M X - where X assumes everyone has the same stack size..) so it's obviously more accurate. If everyones effective stack is 5M/CSI then sure, the charts are cool, but what about if stacks are 5 4 3 2 3 3 4 5? You can also enter the hand into sng wiz (or just upload it through a hand history/HEM) then click a button to make it automatically get sent to the nash calculators on Holdemresources.

Just remember as a general rule, because of factors such as not losing fold equity, etc, you can usually shove wider than the charts/nash ranges since people on average call tighter than nash significantly. BUT, once again, ADJUST TO REGS!!! If there are regs behind, these bad habits of "default" ranges will not be good for your bottom line
09-05-2011 , 06:25 AM
Thanks for letting us bombard you with questions for a short while;

What kind of daily routine did you have for 180s grind and review? What do you teach your students about routine?
09-05-2011 , 06:43 AM
first que

I mean you site on BB have a nice stack and short(3-5bb) push. You can profitable call 90-100% of hands. With ante you have 1.9-1, 2-1. In this scenario good regs call very wide.
09-05-2011 , 06:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by besmod
Thanks for letting us bombard you with questions for a short while;

What kind of daily routine did you have for 180s grind and review? What do you teach your students about routine?
Nothing too specific. I've played pretty little lifetime as I said so I rarely have had more than 2 sessions in a week.. A typical session is just wake up as early as possible, around 5-6AM then reg every 3.5/8/15/35 until around 11AM-Noon. At some stage I was backed/coached for MTTs so I sometimes played a bit less and added MTTs too.. Also, if my laptop/computer/setup is being really crappy I'll drop some games, usually the 3.5s first. With no internet/computer problems at all I'm fairly confident I would be comfortable 50 tabling 180s (although I guess 30-35 is probably around "perfect").. As for review, I did a few group sessions with brad2002tj when I was originally learning these which were pretty cool, other than that I have a look through HEM and/or HHs through universal replayer and maybe very rarely check SNG wiz for some stuff but as implied already I really didn't put much time into review/study with sng wiz etc. Instead I mostly learnt through playing a lot, the reviews and I guess reading threads on 2p2. Usually I found it really helpful to read a thread, and think instantly what range would I shove/reshove/call in this hand (I usually disregard what hand the OP had, since it's not that useful to say you should have shoved your AdJc here - much more beneficial for your game to say 77+ ATo A8s KQs or whatever as an example).

That being said I recommend my students to be way more studious than I was, and to definitely in addition to any coaching sessions with me (or anyone else for that matter) to check hands through HEM, SNG Wiz or even just Universal Replayer (looking through a couple of deep runs a week, for example) to see if they made any clear mistakes, as well as identifying spots there were unsure about/not too confident about and subsequently using sng wiz to find a range for the situation, post on 2p2/other forums and of course
ask a friend/coach/etc...

Basically to play a fair amount, don't slack off, don't take significant breaks - especially when learning, since you can get rusty/"lose your touch" somewhat easily especially if you are just learning, then take two weeks off or whatever imo. And of course do some reviews, study etc.

Finding the right range in that spot is nice of course but it's also important to ask a coach/knowledgeable friend what variables need to be considered, since it's so rare you will have the exact same situation (stack sizes, players etc) in the future, so if this hand is..
post ante
Hero CO 14BB
Good reg BTN 13BB
random tightish guy 10BB
Good reg BB 19BB

Say as AN EXAMPLE I shove 50% here...

We can find a good range (the example of 50%) but it's more important to realise what are the actual variables that determine our profitable shoving range... Won't say all of them, but for example one variable is obviously our stack size. So we know that if in a future hand the players/everything else were to be the same but instead hero has 10BB we can shove wider (maybe now 65%).. another factor we can consider (generally less important) is table image. Assuming the same situation, so 14BB again - If we just shoved 5/6 of the last hands, then I would now maybe shove 45%, since the 45th-50th percentile may no longer be profitable since the players will be a bit inclined to call a bit wider than they normally do since we shoved so much already. You get the idea, most of you should be able to think to yourselves what other kind of variables influence our range (some more obvious than others).

That was specifically for those who are kind of still "just learning".
09-05-2011 , 06:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ITIHolek
first que

I mean you site on BB have a nice stack and short(3-5bb) push. You can profitable call 90-100% of hands. With ante you have 1.9-1, 2-1. In this scenario good regs call very wide.
Well sure, I think I mostly answered this question correctly. Yes there are probably numbers you can come up with where if you are getting X odds you should be calling 100%/ATC no matter what but as said I don't really like using these general rules/numbers. Instead I think it's better to look at each hand individually. But yes, of course if a short stack pushes and you are in the BB, you can call very wide (sometimes ATC depending on who pushes and what odds you are getting etc).. Basically estimate his shoving range, Pokerstove your hand vs. that range, then see if the pot odds mean you have enough equity with your hand vs. his estimated range to call.

Generally I will call a break even cEV (excluding on the final table etc) or better situation, unless it might affect my future fold equity. E.g. if I have 13BBs, someone shoves 7BBs into me and based on my calculations I think this is a break even call or even VERY SLIGHTLY profitable call then I will fold, since if/when we lose, we now have 6BBs which significantly reduces our future fold equity/general profitability.. We can however consider a few other factors as I mentioned earlier, such as making a thin/SLIGHTLY -cEV call to make our table image appear looseish so people shove tighter into us in the future.

Or, if a good reg (i.e. your likely competition) shoves into you, calling a little bit lighter has merits because by folding you are allowing him to regain a stack etc, whereas if you call (and win) then you eliminate him, and sometimes virtually your only competition - especially on the final table if I have a big stack etc, the line up is myself a good reg and 3 randoms, I will sacrifice a little EV to call a bit wider since eliminating him means I have so much EV vs. this field of randoms. Again, I would only make a very slightly -EV call taking this into consideration and it's not that important to factor this in into your guys games but it's worth considering? Of course if you call and lose, he will get a bigger stack and that can suck so this isn't that big of a reason to call lighter I guess

A simple example if it helps..
Say a reg on the BTN who you know is decent shoves 4BB. Pre ante, for simplicity.
Say you are in the BB with 20BB (so you wouldn't lose fold equity if you lost the call).. Estimate his shoving range (usually 100% or close to)
Put your hand into PokerStove vs. his range (say 100%, or maybe 95% since on average some decent regs might not shove 100%) check the equity your hand has vs. that range.
Is the equity equal to or more than the % of calling 3 into a pot of 8.5 (4BB:his shove + 0.5BB:the small blind +4BB:your call, if you call profitable?

Say we have 75s..
75s vs. top 95% has 43% equity. 3/8.5 = .35
43 > 35 (ignoring other factors as mentioned above) so we call..
If instead our hand is 32o, we have 32% vs. top 95% so we can fold (although I don't blame a call if it's this close).

You get the idea. We can obviously replace the numbers as antes kick in etc and our hand changes, ranges change but this is essentially what to consider. Getting better with these spots are basically a combination of study and practice/experience.. Play more and you will get better at these spots. Universal replayer is great because it tells you the pot odds you are getting, so especially if someone shoves and everyone else folds to you in the BB you know exactly what pot odds you are getting and what your hands equity vs. the shovers range has to be for it to be break even or better (once again ignoring other factors)

Last edited by OMGClayDol; 09-05-2011 at 07:10 AM.
09-05-2011 , 01:41 PM
I see from your videos you are using a HUD for 180's.
What are the most necessary/important stats that should be displayed for these tournaments.
09-05-2011 , 03:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stim1986
I see from your videos you are using a HUD for 180's.
What are the most necessary/important stats that should be displayed for these tournaments.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OMGClayDol
Yes, usually. My ideal set up would have a HUD but it would be pretty simple, mainly just hand/sample size + vpip/pfr. The main purpose of a HUD in 180s I feel is to simply distinguish between a regular and a random, the difference between a 10/9 and a 14/13 is rarely going to make a difference in my decision making, and as I've said in a couple of threads already I feel often these stats can be misinterpreted since obviously these unfiltered stats will include hands from 10/20 to the highest blinds (2500/5000+).. Therefore, often some less experience players will make the mistake of looking at a typical regs stats of 12/10 (give or take) and assume he is tight, even when he shoves post ante, which is often incorrect because most good regs have pretty tight stats overall. Many/most good regs with stats of 12/10 or even tighter will actually be shoving very wide post ante (as they should be) and again I think this is a common mistake.

Even more problematic are stats like 3b% which some people seem to over apply very significantly. This stat takes a pretty big sample (like upper hundreds at least) to be remotely "accurate" and even then, similarly unfiltered it includes ALL hands 10/20 and higher.- {remember even 1k hands on a single reg would take many games to accumulate since you obviously don't actually get on the same table as every reg every tourney, etc}
Basically 95%+ of regs (and I would advise this too) do not 3-bet light/as a bluff at the early stages, esp 10/20.. Because of this if you have say 300 hands on a typical reg at 10/20 blind levels, his 3b% will be like 3-4% or something.. This isn't really accurate when combined with the later stage stats since the good regs who aren't 3betting light will now be reshoving fairly wide. I have heard various students talk about how they decided to call pretty light to a reshove because a guys 3b% on their HUD was 17% over 50 hands or something - which is sometimes 1/5 opportunities (!!!)

Anyway, you can certainly use other stats but I feel vpip/pfr is sufficient, and maybe M or BB if you aren't quick with numbers. When someone like me 30+ tables I rarely have time to look deeper into stats, by position etc or whatever... So it wouldn't be too practical, and I think most regs are in the same position. I also don't really know if you can filter by blind level, in which case it might be somewhat useful, but I still am not fully convinced I'd use such stats if they were filterable. Sorry for that answer being so long..

Answer is already in the thread
09-05-2011 , 03:59 PM
Hey yeah as talked about above I would have PFR/VPIP and sample size as most important for basically identifying regs/randoms and maybe M/BB if you aren't quick enough with numbers. Nothing else is that important imo, generally speaking
09-05-2011 , 04:05 PM
do you think adding more tables makes up for more misclicks?
i did

      
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