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8/180 Jam or Raise? 8/180 Jam or Raise?

10-21-2011 , 03:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by collincapone
Correct 17 bbs and I'd still muck it in this spot. Not sure if I would go based on what a hu hyper player thinks.
He's asking what he should do, not what you would do. I don't see what the two have to do with each other.

OP: very profitable jam
10-21-2011 , 06:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by collincapone
Lol when you shove 17 bbs your hand is face up and you're gonna get snapped by most pairs. If you are going to play it a min raise would be better than a shove here.

As for the stop playing turbos comment that's ridic. If anything I need to play more of them since most of the regs and posters in here are so easy to exploit.
Lol snap with most pairs if you want buddy but you get dealt a pair 5.9% of the time only, and that includes 22, 33, 44 and so on
You are shoving 17BB into one guy..... 17bb post antes into one guy is not as big of a deal as you seem to think (i said this already)
even IF that one guy is a regular, there isn't much he can do other than have a decent idea what the hand is, then hope he gets dealt a hand he can call with

also fwiw in this spot if op shoves, there are a TONNE of times the shover shows up with medium pairs up to 99, some other hands like Ax, suited broadways etc etc so you can't even just assume his range is exactly/only baby pairs

i mean i don't recommend it at all but i think your understanding of exploitable etc is off, i mean i could shove 22 heads up for 20bb, maybe it's obv what i have but you can't do anything about it simply because of the fact you won't get dealt enough hands that you can profitably call with. i mean i can flip my hand face up literally, and jamming is still profitable no matter what you call/fold. i think this is what sklansky-chubukov is.
10-21-2011 , 08:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by collincapone
Lol when you shove 17 bbs your hand is face up and you're gonna get snapped by most pairs. If you are going to play it a min raise would be better than a shove here.

As for the stop playing turbos comment that's ridic. If anything I need to play more of them since most of the regs and posters in here are so easy to exploit.
The jam is unexploitable if you are only worried about SB.
10-21-2011 , 09:01 PM
All this heads up talk and it's not even heads up...If the blinds were higher it would be more worth the risk. At this stage in the tournament with such a healthy stack the reward for shoving does not make up for the times any of the stacks call and you lose.

Also the more times you shove the higher chances you are going to get called the next time you shove so you want to try to not be continually all in. I'd even recommend sometimes to commit most of your stack but leave some chips behind so non paying attention to detail opponents (distracted rec players+ mass tablers) just sees the size of raise and folds and misses the fact you are all in. Maybe mass tablers don't care or think about these little things but you should.
10-21-2011 , 09:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by collincapone
All this heads up talk and it's not even heads up...If the blinds were higher it would be more worth the risk. At this stage in the tournament with such a healthy stack the reward for shoving does not make up for the times any of the stacks call and you lose.

Also the more times you shove the higher chances you are going to get called the next time you shove so you want to try to not be continually all in. I'd even recommend sometimes to commit most of your stack but leave some chips behind so non paying attention to detail opponents (distracted rec players+ mass tablers) just sees the size of raise and folds and misses the fact you are all in. Maybe mass tablers don't care or think about these little things but you should.
You seem to be in the minority here sorry Jamming definitely +EV but I like r/f to SB and r/c all else better unless fish are flatting WAY too wide
10-21-2011 , 09:42 PM
I am def in the minority but I am cool with that.
10-21-2011 , 11:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Double Ice
No, you are creating more variance for yourself. When we minraise, in this specific spot with everyone supershort, we are basically already all in vs everyone at the table except sb, because with basically all of our range for minraising we are definitely not going to fold to a 7bb jam. Everyone except sb will play similar ranges whether we push or min. But we can fold to sb, and sb will not attack us light. That is creating an extra advantage, because we can fold when beat. When you push, the 8% or whatever % of the time that SB wants to play vs us, he calls and we are doing terribly, creating extra variance. Vs the button is questionable but rc is fine.

If our minraise induced extra unwanted action that increased variance then it is debatable - we still get the advantage of being able to avoid sb, and players in these sngs are generally tight so that is good. But essentially everyone except sb is more or less going to play fit or fold to your minraise and only jam if they would have called a jam themselves at this depth. (whether that is in fact correct or not for them to do so is besides the point.) So there isnt a variance increase by minraising. As I mentioned, there is a variance reduction, because you dont play a 36bb pot when sb has a hand.
What if before you act you notice SB 3b % is 16%? Raise-pray?

I think it's a spot where we can raise slightly bigger than usual (say 700) to hope SB gets a message to gtfo but also commits us better mathematically vs the 10bb stack.
10-21-2011 , 11:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by collincapone
Fold pre
this

Last edited by ftn_chris; 10-21-2011 at 11:39 PM. Reason: is incorrect.
10-24-2011 , 09:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by collincapone
Lol when you shove 17 bbs your hand is face up and you're gonna get snapped by most pairs. If you are going to play it a min raise would be better than a shove here.

As for the stop playing turbos comment that's ridic. If anything I need to play more of them since most of the regs and posters in here are so easy to exploit.
read my post again. start top left.
10-24-2011 , 12:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by furo
read my post again. start top left.
Open folding might have been too nitty but min raise folding to 17 bb shove has to be better than open shoving. Are you open shoving pairs 99+? I think open shoving is ideal for guys playing too many tables since they don't have time to react or know wtf to do when someone does something unexpected.
10-24-2011 , 01:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by martin_malin
mcjamming
jamming is not very safe here
10-24-2011 , 02:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by collincapone
Open folding might have been too nitty but min raise folding to 17 bb shove has to be better than open shoving. Are you open shoving pairs 99+? I think open shoving is ideal for guys playing too many tables since they don't have time to react or know wtf to do when someone does something unexpected.
Mass tabling doesn't turn you into a drooling ****** ( ). Also someone jamming over your minraise isn't exactly something 'unexpected'.
10-24-2011 , 02:49 PM
jam
10-24-2011 , 10:31 PM
Hand too strong to r/f, too weak to r/c, too strong to open-fold since pushing is massively +EV, so, by process of elimination, we arrive at my favorite play
10-25-2011 , 01:26 AM
Either is fine, just don't bitch out and fold if BTN shoves when you open small.
10-25-2011 , 03:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by collincapone
Open folding might have been too nitty but min raise folding to 17 bb shove has to be better than open shoving. Are you open shoving pairs 99+? I think open shoving is ideal for guys playing too many tables since they don't have time to react or know wtf to do when someone does something unexpected.
i would when playing vs competent players (if i shoved before). if i std raised before i'd obv r/c.
you are way to obsessed with balancing vs bad players. if you shove your whole stack in they will fold better hands because THEY would not shove that many BBs with small pairs or Ax. and if you get called by ~99+/AQ by them nits you still have a decent amount of Equity.
if you move up in stakes/play vs better players you should balance for obv reasons.

its not ideal for multitablers, its just easier cause its 1 click.
if they have QQ+ they are not shoving either. i've seen regs (regardless of whether turbo structure or std structure) playing AA face up vs randoms and getting payed plenty of times and a few hands later shove ~25BB over 2x opens with stuff they dont want a call with (like mid pairs,KQ/AT).
so even if you and i know this stuff it does not mean that the reg made a mistake since he played it optimally vs a random fish. he will obv 3b/c or 3b/f vs us with the same stacksize bc of history
10-25-2011 , 11:36 PM
We have an effective 11,45bb shove here considering the antes in the pot....

I think jamming or folding is ok here but 33 raise calling is just bad i think. sometimes we just get called pre from fishes and 33 has no playability at all. we lose to much chips with cbet/folding too often on the flop.

If you are a supersick postflopplayer i dont mind rasing 33 here but most of the time you are not.

in my opinion jam or fold. I like folding a bit more in this spot cause i wann preserve my good stack 4 way better spots in future where the fishes stack off to light vs my strong range.

raise calling the BU for example would be so horrible cause you get it in at best with ~35% and lose a big portion of your good stack if you lose.

long stor short, i fold but shove is ok too or even better depending on players behind you...
10-26-2011 , 02:27 AM
fold anybody?
10-26-2011 , 03:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by striiing
fold anybody?
no
10-26-2011 , 04:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by striiing
fold anybody?
no, raise.
10-26-2011 , 06:52 AM
why not 2.5xing in these spots with one bigstack and several 8-12BB stacks behind, and only minraise with several Big stacks behind?
Wont we get less reshoves from the smaller stacks + then a call is way easier?
10-26-2011 , 09:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glitlr
jamming is not very safe here
care to explain?

Quote:
Originally Posted by poporella
why not 2.5xing in these spots with one bigstack and several 8-12BB stacks behind, and only minraise with several Big stacks behind?
Wont we get less reshoves from the smaller stacks + then a call is way easier?
nah, you're just losing more if SB shoves, can't see a smallstack care about you 2 or 2.5xing.
10-26-2011 , 09:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ONLYRAISEAA
care to explain?
Look at SB's stacksize and u have the answer!
10-26-2011 , 04:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ONLYRAISEAA
care to explain?



nah, you're just losing more if SB shoves, can't see a smallstack care about you 2 or 2.5xing.
But for us pot odd calculation is much easier with 2.5xing, i prefer to make things simple.
I recently mix 2.5 with min-xing in certain spots where i am not sure about reshoving ranges, but decide to play the hand anyway cause its profitable if not catched by the bigstack behind!

assume we have A3 in that spot, now we have only about 35% equity vs most shoving ranges. So now min raise call would be pretty bad, but with 2.5 xing you are priced in to a 10Bb reshove.
10-26-2011 , 05:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by poporella
But for us pot odd calculation is much easier with 2.5xing, i prefer to make things simple.
I recently mix 2.5 with min-xing in certain spots where i am not sure about reshoving ranges, but decide to play the hand anyway cause its profitable if not catched by the bigstack behind!

assume we have A3 in that spot, now we have only about 35% equity vs most shoving ranges. So now min raise call would be pretty bad, but with 2.5 xing you are priced in to a 10Bb reshove.
That's pretty irrelevant, 2.5x/calling doesn't make it more profitable to call when someone jams than 2x/calling, thats illogical

      
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