Could always just use sng wiz + cev to see break even points too lol but yea as said countless times shoving is only not profitable vs. insane nits and similarly calling is usually not gonna be -ev either

3bet / f, jam flop >> flat pre > jam pre > fold pre

How?

if u make 5 bbs in the long run with this shove, its about 19 % roi ... with 26 bbs . i said it before that i like more moneyz with 26 bbs. You could make better return on shoving bu atc.

3b/f isnt>>>>>>>> jam by a lonnnnng way.

Standard shove for me. I am restealing an amount very much worth stealing (18%) with the best hand that I'd rather not flip vs KTs with.

I'll always maintain 3b/f these stack sizes is just comical. I don't mind a flat but we're having to c/f most flops rather than c/r. Nowhere near deep enough to c/r-fold. Or you want to check-shove a 48Jr flop? pfffft ok.

i never said there was anything wrong with jamming pre...just think we get more money overall by 3 betting and jamming the flop

it's not comical if his 4bet range has us crushed...plus we have more room to make a normal 3bet and fold because villain is opening for only 2 bbs

3 betting here has advantages unrelated to the current hand. we are aggressively defending our blind vs. the position mostly likely to challenge our blind in future orbits. jamming is not nearly as fierce as 3 betting pre and insta jamming all flops.

you shouldn't "maintain" any absolute rule for any stack size because there will nearly always be an exception

How is flatting a good option with these stacks against a presumably wide opening range?How do we play on K72 or T84?Just check/call or check/shove?55 just flops pretty bad and I don't think we can setmine profitably with these stacks against a btn opening range.

Really? K72 looks like an awesome board to c/jam on.

PSA: We're not flatting to set mine if we're flatting. Next person who brings up set mining gets five lashings.

nope. set mining profitable. will villain cbet? if so, profit.

as gazillions said, not nec. only looking for set. but even if we are only satisfied with set, i say profitable.

wats a lashing

you're obviously a gimmick. B-

yeah,but it's one of the best flops for us,I just feel like we're going to be playing pots oop with a hand that plays ok on some flops,but is a check fold on most boards,like I'd feel pretty bad doing anything else on T93r or Q84 and those aren't really the worst boards either.When we get it in on 238 or something,we're still getting stacked by better PPs,so I feel like shoving pre is better to get villain to fold flips like JT KJ A6 and possibly 66,77 etc.It's not certain he'll fold those,but ppl don't call that light in general and a reg with 6k games and $8k profit sounds like he's potentially having a pretty tight calling range to heros shove here.

Look at it this way - the chances of flopping a pair with a non-pair starting hand are around 33%, which means that villain misses the majority of flops. Then consider what our calling range looks like preflop in villains eyes - a ton of those flops that you think look bad for us in reality will look a lot scarier for him. Yes, sometimes were going to run into something that has us crushed, but on balance I still feel like playing a little post-flop when the accepted wisdom among most multitabling regs will be "dont take flops when blinds are high" conveys some extra strength for our hand in the eys of a lot of regs, which ought to buy us a decent amount of respect/FE. And if we balance our flatting range with hands like QJs,AT and 88 then we make villains life difficult.

Err, check-raise =/= check-jam

Why is everyone so eager to just get all of our chips in the middle?

I was using the term fairly interchangeably. c/r is totally fine imo.

It's not just fine, it's sexy dammit

SEXAYYYYYYYY

rip it

3b/c is kind of on the right track but not really. the reason is that you are hardly inducing .. and if you get folds, they are like A5 folds which you dont want anyways. and if he has a minr/call range vs your small 3bet, your hand is kinda **** post since he will basically play as if you have the kinda hand you have whether he realizes that or not.

now obviously jam > fold. so the crux of the matter is whether jam > call. and i would say that it is. the reason is basically because when you jam , you shut the opponent out of a ton of equity he would normally have (since he often has two overcards to you but will fold -- eg. 96o) but more importantly, 55 is the sort of hand that, versus competent players,.. its not just a jam as a semibluff because you have enough equity. in fact, vs a correct calling range, you have something like 51.5 to 52% equity... you actually have ok value, and in this situation, theoretically you are almost raising 55 for value. how your opponent responds is another thing -- for example, they may call nitty. but even if they don't respond nash, they will overall just lose more money since we will win tons of money with nash-ey jams like J9s, 76s etc. that should only break even vs a computer, but are going to show a huge profit versus most opponents.

also notice theres 4.5bb out there. get that money

I don't think anyone's said 3 bet/call. Without any history, 3b/c against a reg's 4 bet/shove is going to be horrible. Even with history, I can't imagine it's profitable with a hand like 55.

Well, it's tough to speculate about his minr/call range here, but I'd assume it's either

a) Super tight: Something like AA/KK and we're getting trapped for a c-bet unless of course we hit a set and then we stack him
b) Somewhat loose: Some medium PPs and unpaired hands that will fold most flops, so we win the pot with a c-bet unless he improves/hits a 'gin' flop

Seems pretty profitable to me.

Not sure I read this correctly, but we're jamming J9ss and 76ss here as well?

Plus we haven't even designated his:

1) % open from the button
2) % call our 3 bet + % 4 bet

Hypothetically, if he's opening 40% and shoving/calling 10%, a soft 3 bet makes as much $ as a hard 3 bet but costs us significantly less.

First if jam is profitable, how can 3b/c be bad, even if 3b/f > 3b/c ?

Second in your argument you never mention calling. If 55 is a 3b/f, then, by implication based on your above argument, 43s performs about as well as 55 here since you flop 2pr/flush/straight as often as a set or whatever, as well as pretty much any suited hand.
Now, this may actually be true (so you actually have a valid point) but that is kind of ahead of ourselves. Note that we can learn something -- our assumptions for how we should play postflop (play if we hit) are slightly wrong -- we should bluff with overcards and make some other bluffs too. Watch HS hyperturbo husngs sometime-- youll see players betcall 25bb deep with AT high or whatever "trash" on the flop as if they had the nuts. They do.

Even more -- vs most players, 85s is a fistpump.

u do not have enough implied ods playin oop callin for a set value qith 28 bb
u cannot play it profitable so shovin seems to be better

Paging CBorders

do you have any arguments to support that statement? we need 15:1 for a setmine to be profitable + as others have said we are not only setmining here with a midpair when flatting.
its pretty hard to make the preflopcall -EV so its just to decide whether flatting > shoving and the wider he will call the shove and the bigger our edge postflop is and the more hands we should flat that would usually be a shove vs good villains that will make our live hard OOP.

My first visit to the MTSNG forum and I stumble upon this...wow.

This is a pretty trivial shove vs almost anyone, if its a laggy reg with whom we have history we can probably 3b/c profitably. Flatting is an option but we are making things unnecessarily awkward if we do. So many people ITT overcomplicating this.