Hero (UTG): 4,841 (4.8 bb)
UTG+1: 22,393 (22.4 bb)
UTG+2: 20,335 (20.3 bb)[/b]
CO: 22,415 (22.4 bb)
BTN: 15,416 (15.4 bb)
SB: 16,941 (16.9 bb)
BB: 4,407 (4.4 bb)
Preflop: Hero is UTG with 7 5
2 folds, UTG+2 raises to 2,300, 4 folds

Results: 3,200 pot
UTG+2 mucked and won 3,200 (2,100 net)

17 players left.

Is this a push? Sngwiz says that i should shove 90% but when i enter this to nash calculator it gives me 26.1%, 22+ A2s+ A4o+ K6s+ KTo+ Q9s+ QJo J9s+ T9s. SNgwiz is on chip equity mode.

Im little bit confused how i should check if i made correct shove/fold. What is the correct method to learn push ranges when there is 10+ players left in the tournament?

I'd be shoving this. We have to try and preserve what little fold equity we have, as when the blinds hit us we will have none. Better to take a -ev move here to try and get ourselves a bigger stack with more fold equity. Folding to wait for a better spot that might not come in time is pointless because even if it comes in the next 3 hands we are not going to get a big stack at all.

The way I try to look at short stack play when we are ITM but not near the FT is that i'd rather push a little wider than normal because you will never make the FT with the stack you have now, so why try and do it. Your hand isn't terribad and if you get a walk then you increase your stack significantly.
Pushing something like 80-90% here

Thanks for response. Why nash gives such a tight range to this spot?

Nash is based on everyone else pushing/calling nash equilibrium. Also you might have the payout structure wrong or something.

being hit by the blinds is too big a chuck of your stack, got to ship it and hope no-one has a big pair

What is your range on other postions here with this stack?

90% on all positions?

Why not fold and make a +ev play next Hand? We can call a super wide range next Hand because of potodds.

Got to shove it regretfully, stranger things have happened than us getting a walk in this situation. And if called hope we're live and you never know...

you'd rather fold and call ATC next in the big blinds when we guarentee to not even have a chance of winning the blinds with the little FE we had and almost resigning ourselves to always getting it in behind against a stupid SB steal with J3 to our 92o?

Basically "i've got a feeling i'm getting AA in the BB" and hoping it happens?

yeah nash assumes all call nash, and as said if you use sng wiz you may have it on $EV/icm mode.. also nash/sng wiz dont consider future utility of having fold equity, not blinding out etc. this isnt a snap shove but usually its fine unless you are a recognised reg and there are a few good regs behind

This pretty clearly is not an ATC call the next hand in the BB with 4.7xBB.

I would fold and evaluate the next hand based on the situation. No need for a kamikaze push of junk UTG. No need to maintain FE at all cost. Just hang in there with a small stack and wait for an opportunity.

Think people are too into doing the opposite of what donks do. No reason to avoid a microstack at all costs.

If people call us each with 20% which is very reasonable we get called 75% of the time.i have the same opinion like betgo. Its not the end of the world if we lose our Foldequity. No need to suicide our Tournament life because we could lose foldequity.

Taking the blinds will leave us having 3bb roughly and no guarantee that we will get a hand. Also, if blinds are going to go up in 1min or so this becomes even more of a shove.
If you see regs like claydol said then you can lean to a fold perhaps because they will call you light but otherwise randoms are gonna be more worried about keeping their stacks big and trying to make the final table. I don't see a random calling you with 20% just because of this. When was the last time you saw a random call your utg AI with stuff like Q8s (correct me if i'm wrong).

I think there are too many factors saying push than fold.

seems fine 7handed, 8handed i'd fold. def folding 9handed.

Some players will call with 15% and other players will call 30%(The Blinds) . On average it will be something around 20%.Also Q8s is not in the 20% calling range. A 20% calling range for me is 44+,A2s+,K9s+,Qjs,A7o+,Kto+.
These Hands i see every day when i shove around 5bb from Early Position.
We also have a relatively high % that we can call a shove in the Sb or the BB. Dont get me wrong. I shove wider than the Nash Range. But ATC is just horrible in my opinion especially if other Regs see it. If other Regs see that you shove ATC in this Spot they can make your future Shoves mega -ev.

Yeah that is fair enough. I think i said originally i'm shoving 80% but doesn't really matter. I'd just rather shove for 5bb now than call for 4bb (and possibly an equally bad hand)

And what are you doing when you are plaing verus good regulars and you are a recognised reg?

folding and pushing tighter..?
sorry thought that was obvious from what i said lol

also randoms are never calling 30% in the blinds and 15% is too loose for randoms in early position too. and even some regs too. you have to remember that even though we are (obviously) pretty wide, people won't isolate that wide because a) they are bad, but just as importantly they can't really go crazy because they have deeper effective stacks with the guys behind. like the guy behind us if he has 12bb for e.g. is still shoving his 12bb into 6 other people with 12bb

Ok, my questions wasn't so good.

Example: you are UTG with marginal hand like 75o.

There are some decent regulars on the table. Especially the BB is a regular. What is my best play here?

UTG: pushing 75% and in 25% if the cases calling with ATC the next hand?

u dont have to call atc in the bb next hand

nope, instafold

I guess I should elaborate.

First, this "preserve fold equity" is antiquated thinking from sng days where that was a correct play. For example say you are playing a sng with payout structure 5/3/2/0 and everyone has 3375 chips and the blinds are 300/600. The nash calculator predicts you should jam : 45.7%, 22+ Ax+ K2s+ K5o+ Q2s+ Q8o+ J4s+ J9o+ T6s+ T9o 96s+ 86s+ 76s 65s and now taking into account that you will the bb and lose your fold equity kinda, you should push very wide (wider than this 46% for sure). The reason it mattered alot is because the bubble factor is very high for all the players. This makes it so that the fold equity you have is creating extra EV for you.

Now leaving that for a second; someone raised a good argument, which is people dont isolate as wide as they should. I went into nash calculator beta and I chose the nittiest calling ranges imaginable: 8%,9%,10%,11%,19%,25%, and I still got that 75o was -cev. This is actually a very strong statement because once you incorporate the correct structure, it makes -75o VERY -ev. And the reason is that in general, early position shoves get tighter as you add a bubble factor, and late position ones get looser.

Now finally about bubble factors. Here, the bubble factor is low. If the bubble factor were 0 then preserving your fold equity doesnt have any value. So as you can see, preserving your fold equity here matters a lot less. It is actually pretty negligible.

I feel like this also came from people not wanting to have to make a decision. When you have 4bb you have to call off quite wide. People fearing that decision to call in marginal spots led them to take -EV spots where atleast they could make clear folds at 8bb deep.

One last point. When bubble factors are low, having the shorter stack is better. Its the same reason shortstacking in cash games is good. Imagine you are BB next hand and someone let you choose: you can play a 1bb stack 10 times, or a 10bb stack once. What would you rather have? And the answer is the 1bb stack. There are a lot of nuances that are hard to get indepth here concisely but in general having a short stack when the bubble factor is low is not something that should worry you (unless you play these stacksizes poorly ... then get better at them or something) and is actually kind of an advantage* [needs more justification but im too lazy]

i dont like shoving this...

it is super exploitable

i'm by no means saying this is anything close to a mandatory shove but the ranges you gave are definitely not the nittiest calling ranges, randoms will be significantly tighter, esp for e.g. the guys in early position are reshoving 20bbs/16bbs into multiple players, some regs will be tightish but some randoms will be even more so. and the average player is def not calling 25 in the BB etc. for example i found it somewhat hard to make it worse than break even with the typical ranges of randoms. edit: maybe i entered wrong but even with your calling ranges it's around break even on wiz. i realise the overcall considerations are a bit different to other software but shouldnt be off by thaaat much.

also your consideration ignores the consideration of the value of having fold equity. yes, having fold equity is obviously way more important in a bubble of a 9-man where bubble factors are ridic. high but our tournament value should consider our actual chip stack + our skill edge (which depends on how big our chip stack is; if we have more we have more fold equity to work around with and can stack fish for more chips/outplay people etc). now obviously being shorter in the BB is better, but you'd rather have 10BB on the BTN, CO, HJ, etc than 1BB (i realise if you have 1bb you can call every hand and get great pot odds but pretty sure being able to make profitable shoves/calls deeper with our decision making skills (better than the average field etc) and only paying an ante when we fold is overall more profitable, might be wrong on this part)). basically i think there still is some value in having fold equity which a pure cev calculation doesnt consider.

finally one other small thing, if you do a cev calculation it will obviously factor how often you bust/lose your stack, how often you get called and double up/triple up/gain chips whatever and how often you shove and win the dead money. another thing in addition to fold equity considerations is that when you shove and lose, as a short stack, what you lost is considered to be your stack (all the chips in your stack). one "good" thing that isn't considered is the fact that if you bust you now don't have to post the BB (or sb the following hand) the next hand. it's not a huge deal but worth considering. i think this was something "MUD" brought up a while ago.

I don't really understand how ATC can not be a shove in this spot. Considering there is another 8 eliminations before there is a pay jump here, we may as well use the extra 1100 chips we have this hand as f/e and also as part of our double up.