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 180men  UTG range of a teaching vid  180men  UTG range of a teaching vid

10-16-2011 , 10:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by itscml
My advice to you is to not give advice.

The K9o shove is awful. But everyone makes mistakes!
My advice to you is to stop being a troll as has been said to you numerous times. You come off as nothing but a jerk and you have to be one of the worst examples of a "coach" I've ever seen.
10-16-2011 , 11:03 PM
Yeah I mean I don't want to go into details too much because it looks bad coming from me but can you honestly please think a little about what you have written before you click post, a lot of your posts are really out of line, especially as a coach, e.g. calling everyone who follows icm an idiot etc, calling everyone who makes $1/game an idiot who should work at McDs, etc etc.

His advice has a lot of merit to say the least and if you are going to so blatently disagree with it then please feel free to explain otherwise (not saying I would personally never jam anything 15BB+ post antes, but there are a lot of merits to not having a 15BB+ open jamming range, esp UTG).
10-17-2011 , 01:42 AM
The notion that I am a troll is silly. Come on, guys. I'm trying to help and learn just like everyone else, and excoriating me for pointing out that some advice lacks merit is counterproductive.
10-17-2011 , 02:45 AM
Questions to the Mods

Is there anyway that i can block everyone's reply to theroy treads except OMGclaydoll + a few others????

Both hands aren't terabad

lol most of this thread

edit: Would like to say that these hands are not taken from my vid, as i am a fish who doesn't have a vid
10-17-2011 , 04:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SandmanNess
FWIW theres not a hand I'm jamming UTG for 15bb post ante (12 effective, or "true BBs as Glitlr says It's either a r/f, r/c, or open fold.
So what do you do then with Hands like AK,AQo,AJs or 88-TT if you are on a table where many players coldcall your raise? And what do you do with these Hands except AK if someone reshoves? You pretty much have to call then when they reshove and you have a coinflip a ton where Players would have folded if you shove. In my opinion its perfectly acceptable to shove 15bbs postante and i know many good regs that do it. Its also much easier if you mutitable.
I raise only from late Position with my monsters and with hands that are too weak to shove for balance. The "middle" Hands i just shove.
You can of course try to balance a Range where you raise all of your Hands and then decide what Hands you call or fold depending on the the players behind etc., but this Method is very difficult to play and not good for mass multitabling and you can make big mistakes if you have not big Samplesizes on the other players.
10-17-2011 , 04:55 AM
Lol if you are serious, then you can individually block/ignore people so you don't see their posts but I generally wouldn't do this because even if someone is worth ignoring (which I personally don't think I've found someone I would want to ignore) sometimes responses to those people won't make sense without their post.
10-17-2011 , 04:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by itscml
The notion that I am a troll is silly. Come on, guys. I'm trying to help and learn just like everyone else, and excoriating me for pointing out that some advice lacks merit is counterproductive.
There are a multitude of ways to point out that you don't agree with someone without being a jerk. Learn them. It's not like this was the first time someone has told it to you, it's been pointed out in other threads as well. If the shoe fits...
10-17-2011 , 05:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cpt.Hero
So what do you do then with Hands like AK,AQo,AJs or 88-TT if you are on a table where many players coldcall your raise? And what do you do with these Hands except AK if someone reshoves? You pretty much have to call then when they reshove and you have a coinflip a ton where Players would have folded if you shove. In my opinion its perfectly acceptable to shove 15bbs postante and i know many good regs that do it. Its also much easier if you mutitable.
I raise only from late Position with my monsters and with hands that are too weak to shove for balance. The "middle" Hands i just shove.
You can of course try to balance a Range where you raise all of your Hands and then decide what Hands you call or fold depending on the the players behind etc., but this Method is very difficult to play and not good for mass multitabling and you can make big mistakes if you have not big Samplesizes on the other players.
I evalute the hand based on the players. If someone that's a reg that knows me, I know they're probably going to be stealing light. So I adjust accordingly. Randoms I play on a standard range. If I open 88 under the gun for 13 effective bb (like 16 bbs) and someone like DontBluffMyJ shoves over I can probably call because he normally resteals light (situation dependent) . If it's a random that I've never seen I probably fold. It depends on what I think my perceived image is at the table is as well. It also is great when I raise a hand like 1010 instead of open shoving and I get a shove and a reshove, because I probably just saved myself from getting busted out. If you're saying I'm going to create flatters, well thats a GOOD thing. If I'm raising AQ instead of shoving it and I'm getting players to flat with worse like KJ suited (that folds to a shove) I'm gaining equity over the long run. If there are enough regs at the table I will shove my entire range under 15bbs for balance, but with fish there is too much equity to gain when they flat with marginal holdings. Just because it's not as easy doesn't mean it doesn't have merit. I used to be a shovebot, and then I met someone who is much better than me, that plays TWICE as many games as I do at a time, and has EXCELLENT post flop skills and he crushes. So I decided to stop learning a memory game and start learning to actually play poker. Do I get in sticky spots sometimes? Sure. Do I make mistakes and butcher hands sometimes where I could have just shoved and saved myself the trouble? Sure. I'm still learning to play this way. But in the end I will be better for it. Every month the games get harder and you have to find an edge wherever you can find it, and if everyone's playing the same way, I will continue to win because I will find equity that other players are ignoring. And yes, you can do this multitabling. But you have to step out of the box and get used to making more decisions faster. When I'm confidant in my abilities and get a sample size big enough to show it, then I'll know exactly how much better I am. But that time hasn't come yet, and till it does, I'll keep working.

And I know that some people making good money per hour just shoving or folding (more than me atm), and that's great for them. They could make more if they tried, but some people won't change what they're doing to experiment with something that would make them better because they have the "if it's not broken, don't fix it" mentality. And that's fine and you won't see me say to someone that chose to shove that it's "not correct". It could just be more profitable not to.
10-17-2011 , 06:51 AM
i have a different opinion when it comes to coldcallers and 15bb stacks. If you have a +ev Hand from early position and shove you win Chips in the long run. If you raise AQ from UTG and 2 people coldcall you have a slight equity advantage, but you wont hit the flop like 65% of the time and then you can be the best postflop player in the world but you will be playing a guessing game if you are still ahead or not.
If you play deepstack Poker its not a big deal if you have to give up this small Pots BB wise and you will get your value if you hit multiway and another player is not able to fold and you win 80bb or whatever from him.
But in shortstack poker you play more your Preflop equity. You dont want to play a guessing game and give up a pot when you have 1/4 or 1/3 of your stack invested when you could be still ahead unimproved on the flop.
I think you overestimate your Equity edge Multiway with Hands like AQ,AK,AJ,88,99,TT etc. You also have to realize your equity, which is very difficult postflop with short stacks where you have no idea where you stand unimproved or with overcards.

edit: If you play highstakes against competent players then i think your approach is the best. But at lower stakes my approach should be more +ev

Last edited by Cpt.Hero; 10-17-2011 at 06:59 AM.
10-17-2011 , 07:11 AM
well at 15bbs if I min raise that leaves me with 13bbs. 2/15 hardly leaves me with 1/4 or 1/3 of my stack in the pot. At 15bbs and less, I do have hands that I open shove utg because I am getting closer to having more money committed to the hand with a raise. But everything is relative. I'm not advocating a particular strategy as much as I'm saying people should learn to think outside the box.

Again, what I won't do is tell people that shoving larger stacks is wrong. At least until I'm more positive myself. But I've played both ways and I know which one FEELS better based on the situations I end up in, so now I just have to get the sample. I don't have a problem with people disagreeing with me, it's just not necessary to be a prick about it.

Oh and FWIW, my skype is SandmanNess, any of the 45 and 180 regs feel free to add me I'd like to get opinion about hands where I deviate from the norm, but I'm not going to post them in this forum and see 30 "shove pre"s

Last edited by SandmanNess; 10-17-2011 at 07:20 AM.
10-17-2011 , 07:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SandmanNess
I used to be a shovebot, and then I met someone who is much better than me, that plays TWICE as many games as I do at a time, and has EXCELLENT post flop skills and he crushes. So I decided to stop learning a memory game and start learning to actually play poker. Do I get in sticky spots sometimes? Sure. Do I make mistakes and butcher hands sometimes where I could have just shoved and saved myself the trouble? Sure. I'm still learning to play this way. But in the end I will be better for it.
Precisely this, same as me. As tempting as it is to spread your knew found knowledge, just don't tap the glass mate. Leave em all to it.

      
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