who of you pushes this?
this hand is taken out of an instructional video:





also this hand he pushes:

PokerStars NLHE Tournament, t400/t800/t75 blinds, 9 handed, 30%/20%/11.9%/8%/6.5%/5%/3.5%/2.6%/1.7% payouts
Hand exported from the SitNGo Wizard. How to import this hand into the SitNGo Wizard.
{Tournament|PokerStars|||400|800|75|180-Man}
Hero: t21000 24 BBs{Player|Hero|21000|Ad|9c}
UTG+1: t13476 15 BBs{Player|UTG+1|13476|None|0|Average|13|8}
UTG+2: t300 0.3 BBs{Player|UTG+2|300|None|0|Overridden|92|92|9|92}
UTG+3: t12619 14 BBs{Player|UTG+3|12619|None|0|Overridden|13|13|8|8|14 |8|8|8}
UTG+4: t10000 11 BBs{Player|UTG+4|10000|None|0|Overridden|16|10|16|10| 10|10|10|14|10|10|10|10|10|10|10}
CO: t5000 5.7 BBs{Player|CO|5000|None|0|Overridden|37|22|22|22|37|2 2|22|22|22|22|22|31|22|22|22|22|22|22|22|22|22|22| 22|22|22|22}
BTN: t21000 24 BBs{Player|BTN|21000|None|0|Average|16|12|10|10|9|9|9 |16|12|10|9|9|9|9|9|9|9|9|9|9|9|9|9|9|9|9|9|9|9|9| 9|9|9|9|9|9|9|9|9|9|9|9}
SB: t23883 27 BBs[COLOR="White"]
BB: t4000 4.6 BBs{Player|BB|4000}

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A9
Hero?

Opponent calling ranges when hero pushes:
UTG+1 (3.8+), UTG+2 (5+), UTG+3 (7+), UTG+4 (7+), CO (15+), BTN (4.8+), SB (6+), BB (25+)

It's not bad to push it, but I wouldn't. K9s+ and KJo+ for this, and I wouldn't shove 24bb UTG with A9o either.

Not even shoving with 24bb, maybe on btn or bvb, but otherwise it's just plain stupid.

1st one might be closer than u think.
2nd one i just dont get it. Why shove?

I guess the guy will come here and explain to us, he is an active poster here!

But 1st hand T9s+,J9s+,Q9s+,K9s+A9s, KJo+,QJs+22+ATo+, that would be my range, even in a 45er, maybe some more suited aces in a 180men...but thats it

But not K9o that hand is in my average 35%+ range, and from UTG it might be even closer to a 45% range, equity wise.

another, hand....i mean i can come up here with tons of borderline hands from those vids:
Comment, "yea i am comfortable to get it in here..." ????

PokerStars NLHE Tournament, ($22), t200/t400/t50 blinds, 8 handed, 30%/20%/11.9%/8%/6.5%/5%/3.5%/2.6%/1.7% payouts
Hand exported from the SitNGo Wizard. How to import this hand into the SitNGo Wizard.
{Tournament|PokerStars|22||200|400|50|180-Man}
UTG: t2200 4.9 BBs{Player|UTG|2200|Fold|0}
UTG+1: t665 1.5 BBs{Player|UTG+1|665|Push|665|Average|85}
Hero: t5352 12 BBs{Player|Hero|5352|Ac|6h}
UTG+3: t16757 37 BBs{Player|UTG+3|16757|None|0|Overridden|12|9}
CO: t6195 14 BBs{Player|CO|6195|None|0|Overridden|13|8|9|3}
BTN: t8496 19 BBs{Player|BTN|8496|None|0|Average|31|9|9|12|4|4|4}
SB: t3565 7.9 BBs{Player|SB|3565|None|0|Overridden|37|24|24|24|14|8 |8|8|8|8|8|8}
BB: t3636 8.1 BBs{Player|BB|3636|None|0|Overridden|142|31|31|31|31| 16|31|9|9|9|9|9|9|9|9|9|9|9|9|9}

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with A6
1 fold, UTG+1 pushes t665 (47+), Hero?

Opponent calling ranges when hero pushes:
UTG+3 (5+), CO (5+), BTN (6.1+), SB (7+), BB (8+)

Who is it?

1st hand link broken.

I'm pretty sure I can guess who this is

OMG maybe?
The 1st hand is close i think coz we wont have much FE after the blinds hit us.
So we might take a -cEV shove.
The 2nd hand is a "maybe" as we have most of the table covered and the ones with similar stack sizes wont call us wide enough as it is a 24 bb shove.
Does that make any sense??

1. you think about that when you have 6BB, but not 10+BB
2. How much equity adds the blinds to your stacksize, compared vs the times loosing half your stack vs thew times doubling up?

Push is terrible. Not my video.

Obviously it's OMGClaydol when I read "yea i am comfortable to get it in here..."

Can you repost the first hand, by the sounds of things maybe it was just a mistake/a bit too loose but post it and I'll give more reasoning. Like I said via the PM prob better if you posted the comments on the DC videos themselves, I generally reply within a day and this way you can just time link to the exact hand/timeframe.

Lol it's probably me (obviously) but I don't remember using the phrase "yea I am comfortable to get it in here" and don't think it's something I (usually) say lol. Sometimes even if it's close/borderline and I said that it just simply means I was ok with taking thinner edges (although I'm a bit more picky on that now with bigger stacks)..

2nd is bad (but not ridiculous..) because of the 2 big stacks mostly, you guys have to remember whilst we are shoving 24bb into some people only 2 guys have a big stack (effective stacks) and they will call pretty rarely. That being said based on pretty reasonable ranges it's like -cEV by 1/10 of a BB or so and it is still bad, even if it were +ev -> the more +EV alternative is obviously to min/evaluate. There are a lot of spots where shoving is profitable, but min/evaluate is MORE profitable (in this exact example shoving might be very slightly -cEV/a bit -EV cause of our edge) and I generally avoid making these big shoves anymore unless I have 50 tables up, in fact this is talked about in last episodes (where I correct a couple of other things/talk about a few things like final table and this too)..

The axo is a (too) thin iso, again talked about later - how axo plays poorly multi-way but just mostly how it sucks vs. narrowish (over) calling ranges.

Also lol @ feeling the need to say push is terrible - not my video

that is the first hand you requested:





T9s+,J9s+,Q9s+,K9s+A9s, KQo+,QJs+22+ATo+, that would be my range, even in a 45er, maybe some more suited aces in a 180men but then again we have 11+BB...so would still be borderline.

Yeah those ranges are usually a little too wide, e.g. utg+1 will almost never be on 7%, he has to reshove 20bb into utg+2 and 15 into btn and a random there will be on like 88+ Ajs aqo or something on average which is 6%. not a big difference but if you change everyone by 1% (just an example) it will change the cev a bit.

it's def a thin shove, as you can see even based on your ranges (which are a tiny bit too wide probably, but not crazy) you can see KTo is a shove. basically folding is definitely fine, but i'm ok with the shove (as opposed to some other ones in the vids like final table ones which are really bad, which i do talk about later in series like i said )

your range is a little too tight for my personal standards but it's def fine (as opposed to being too tight full stop)

Havent watched the rest of the series jet.

And in a 45er you would push that thin like nealry 0cev edges aswell?!

I don't play 45s so I dunno, and in a lot of spots no I wouldn't, like I said some of these hands are from nearly 10 months ago and I've since been a bit pickier with how thin the shoves I take are. But when are you are shortish like 10bb or less (and esp if less) and esp if blinds going up soon etc you can be a bit more lenient because you gain more than just chips.

e.g. if you shove and bust, you don't have to pay bb/sb next hand
if you shove and double up you gain some fold equity which is an asset, you gain some moves in your arsenal like being able to raise/fold which is an asset
if you shove and gain the dead money same as above
if you are really short (not 10 but even less) you gain a LOT of fold equity compared to if you fold/post the blinds etc etc

how thin the edges you take are generally personal preference
the better you think you are the less marginal spots you should take esp when "deeper" stacked (like 10+ bb or something, esp on final tables)

point was just the k9o is a lot closer than you think/thought and folding is fine and i would prob even fold sometimes

g2g now but if you have more questions i'll answer asap

Pushbotting too light with a large stack in early position is a leak some grinders have. Neither of these hands are close at all.

Ya this, both are folds.

Yeh, these hands don't play well for a raise OOP and pushing is very cEV-, so easy folds.

both look pretty bad to me

In both hands folding is fine and more std although open raising the A9 depending on the table is also fine, I already talked about this though. That being said lol the k9 is at worst a close fold betgo, you yourself said you don't play the 180s, maybe you should open sng wiz up and enter some ranges before you make blatant and incorrect statements like it being very -cEV. in fact even SHOVING the a9o is only very slightly -cev vs. reasonable ranges. sure you can argue with a big stack shoving is significantly -ev due to our skill edge and the relevancy that has, but you specifically said they are both VERY -cEV..... you have to realise that even if there are 2 20bb stacks, due to how infrequently they call the overall balance of probabilities won't actually be affected to a high level (e.g. with 5% calling ranges and 30% equity it's gonna look something like 0.05 x -8 for that part of the calling ranges assuming 20BB stacks.) put the hands in and see for yourself, assuming you even know what reasonable calling ranges are gonna look like.

I used to play 180s. Not my main game. Got banned in April.

The K9 hand could be described as a close fold, but they are both pretty bad. Aside from cEV, there is probably some ICM factor.

Generally big pushes from early position require big hands. Some MTTSNG grinders are really pushbot happy.



betgo
8,174
$4
$12
34%
$28,910
LLLLLLLL
N/A
PokerStars
E180-180 SNG Only


betgo
2,751
$3
$9
42%
$8,170
LLLLLLLL
N/A
PokerStars
1/1/2010 10/11/2011 E180-180 SNG Only

Sorry in advance for being harsh but those statements are pretty tilting.. big pushes? the first hand is like 12BB.. and you say there is "probably" an icm factor. this is exactly the problem, you don't "know" yet you are making blatant statements (some of which are pretty significantly incorrect) like you do

You specifically said they are both very -cEV, which is wrong. Put the numbers in and you will see they are both close to break even cEV wise. If you said they are both very -EV (whilst that isn't necessarily true) it would have been more accurate. You specifically said neither are close at all, and both are easy folds. Both are close cEV wise which is the problem.

To be clear I already agreed ITT that the second one is a bad shove, but the way you said what you've said is pretty bad and most of it is wrong. If you really didn't mean it the way you worded (which seems unlikely) then I suggest being a bit more selective of your words

You say I don't know what the ICM factor is, which is true. There are a number of factors involved. Part of it is moving up in places. There is some factor that you will be able to use a big stack later on to bully or make profitable plays without fear of busting. However, there is also the issue that picking up chips makes it harder for us to pushbot. For example, both of these hands would be easy pushes with 6xBB.

So if a push loses .2xBB in cEV, it could be significantly worse than that when you consider ICM or the risk of busting out or whatever. Just because we can't calculate what the ICM factor or whatever is doesn't mean we should ignore it and look at straight cEV.

I consider 12xBB UTG a big push, particularly in a MTTSNG. I haven't done calculations on this specifically, but they are both way worse hands than I would consider pushing in those situations.

What is your default UTG jamming range 12bb deep, on FTs and during, say, top 40?