So the bubble has just burst, people playing crazy at the moment this guy been playing crazy. I've just min raised and guy calls board is K high with pos straight draw Right call?

Ship pre.
U were considering folding on flop?

Maybe, but the BB was only 4.1bbs so was no damage if he had the King, had no reads but I won that game anyway.

What???
Jam pre
As played, please dont fold.

Outrageously unveiled.

Ship pre, as played never folding.

The flop is an easy call.

You don't have to ship pre. Raising is fine.

minraise to encourage spewing

Interesting thing that you mention minraise because in these 360 man minraise usually means TT+ AK or AKs almost always when blinds get higher than 400/800. Easier tell is when 3-5bb villain minraises and you are at blinds its super easy fold but if he shoves its insta snapcall (you have to have decent holding still but not that good vs minraise). So I tend to shove all big pairs and minraise hands that I would go all in anyways but have chance to them fold better hand this way. Sometimes they fold to my flop push so its free chips this way too.

Ship it pre!

yep, ship pre and as played never fold flop

U played it perfect OP. Dont ship pre, that would be such a waste.

Im new to posting on the strategy part of this forum but I thought the idea in this spot would be to min raise - try and induce a shove? ppl will be re shipping with a ton of hands worse than jj, hands they wouldn't be calling our all in with.

The really bad players will even flat calling your min raise with all sorts of junk...

do we not lose a ton of value by just shipping pre? don't really see how this could be optimal? perhaps someone could enlighten me?

if you were raising to induce then induce, if not shove. When you see the flop the player (allthough i highly doubt this) may try and just jam any flop to bluff you here. he also might be jamming 7x and 8x. As its assumed most players here when they hit Kx would Check to call your bet all in.

So yeah im never folding here for your question, and reguardless of what he does the chips are going to be going in.

As played calling the all in, probs calling the all in regardless of what cards come on flop actually :s

post more, u nailed it!

I like the minraise if we have say 12-15BB but with less than 10 I'm just shoving with a hand that won't get raped by Q2o post flop on a Q84 board by the BB who can't play at these stakes. Yes like 80% of the time we might take an extra BB or too but 20% we are stacked and for the sake of winning 2.5BB instead of 1.5BB

As said 12-15BB I induce a shove with a minraise. 10 or less I don't mess around

I'm shoving because a minraise with < 10bb is just so transparent and a shove actually looks weaker. But maybe that logic is a little backward in a 10 cent game, so I don't mind minraise.

flawed thinking

Why is this? When we minraise with JJ and get called by a stubborn BB. As standard it will go check, followed by a shove from us which nearly always only gets called when we are beat. On the 25% of the time the flop brings 3 lower cards than our pair, they still then have to nail the flop for us to stack them. Whereas 75% of the time the flop brings an over and will very often only call our shove when they have nailed their over or the rest of the flop.

KK/AA yes, they hit top pair alot more often which is an underpair to us (this happens more often as less overs) and we can stack them easier.

We very rarely stack them on the flop with JJ, we more often stack ourselves and we are only gaining 1 extra BB to what our shove would have gained if they fold on the flop.

If we DONT shove EVERY flop then sure we can minimise our losses and make min-raising a profitable play, however I fail to see what else we are doing on this flop other than it going check, shove or shove, call with less than 10BB here.

Never saying min-raising is not profitable. Saying shoving is more profitable here unless you are folding flops (which you arent)

First off all, are u pulling these numbers off ur arse? Please get those right first!

After u get those numbers right, we can start discussing why ur thinking is flawed. But we need to fix the basics first!

lol, amusing...

Fine, il bite. Ok its more like 40% chance of 3 unders. My point stands that shoving pre is better than min-raising with the plan to shove all flops. Continue

Wow, can we agree thats good for us? We have JJ ffs?

Wut?

Obv this is wrong, we alrdy covered that...

And even when we have JJ they hit toppair, middlepair, btmpair, bluffs, spazzes out.... Yeah its rly bad to hold JJ here... Dont be result oriented by those few times it dosnt work out.

No, simply not true...

Interesting to see other opinions, If we min-raise preflop, planning to shove ANY flops, When we get called do you consider us to be behind or ahead more often?

First of all, I would like to say that shoving is good! Personally I think that min-raising is even better.

The reason the above is flawed, as mentioned above, if you have picked one exact scenario which is terrible for us, and used that as an argument to say that raising is bad. As in any statistics problem, we must consider all possible outcomes, and multiply each one by the likelihood etc. Obviously none of us are going to do that, nor would we expect each other to calculate / estimate such values. What I'm saying is, we must consider a balanced approach.

Let us assume that if we min-raise, we will get called by SB (makes it much more interesting, obviously we are NEVER folding vs BB). The pot size will be a little over 9K. We have just over 1PSB left on the flop. There are very few flops we will be folding for starters (eg AQ9sss might be one). If the flop comes with one over, we certainly cannot assume he has hit! (reread your Q2 example) It's hard to flop pairs.... If you are going to think of such exact examples, then allow me to discuss what happens if the flop comes 972r and villain has K9, or an awful lot worse. T84 with AT..... 542 with 77..... etc etc. My point is, with 1PSB on the flop, JJ can stack loads of hands. Yes, there are times where we will own ourselves, but that frequency is completely trampled by the times villain will hang himself.

Let's not forget, that villain MIGHT (yes I know it's a $0.1/360) know how to own the bubble. This is great for us as he might expect us to fold preflop a lot of the time especially if it "looks like we want to get it in vs BB". Villain might even know how to perform a stop'n'go, which again, is great and is why we WON'T be folding a Q84 flop because we will win most of the time.

Even if villain isn't aware of bubble/ICM play, a min-raise is still likely to induce, for whatever reasons the villain may have (which for us don't matter, as long as he does rejam!). He is a bigger stack and can bully us - whatever he's thinking......

Cliffs: Jamming is still fine. But raise

Great Post. Need more of you in here not people simply stating "flawed" without giving an explanation. Whole idea is to critisise and help correct, not just critisise

I see your reasoning and understand I am singling out 1 single example of where we are beat. Perhaps we are ahead enough to make it fine, I just prefer with a 10bb stack to just get it in pre. Perhaps thats not most EV but the difference in EV between Shoving pre and min-raising, jamming flop I feel is going to be very very minimal so unless you are a very solid player I still like the jam pre as it simplifies the situation some what for very little loss in EV?