There would be 0 reason for them to flip unless then are making money on them.

I always thought Points are worth 10%.. i've seen both 10% and 7% thrown around multiple times, i don't know, i should calculate it myself one time.. In either case, it's a 3% difference, or in this case, 1000$ difference. Does it change anything about the situation or whether it was +EV or not? Didn't think so. Who the **** is colluding by the way? I'm simply playing FLHE and signing coin flips, i'm not colluding with anyone.

Really? Thanks for this tip, I'm gonna email support and see if they'll do this for me.

Who are you flipping with? Lock pros who are taking advantage of a RB deal and other people trying to win the promotion. Whose to say you don't make deals with these guys?

Even without a deal its unethical IMO but people have different moral compasses.

There's no deal, you're free to sign up just as i am. If they're there, and they're +EV for me to play them, i'm going to play them. Here i was, thinking that was what poker is about. Picking on a fish to take his money is at least equally unethical then

Oh, by the way, whose to say you don't make deals with anyone? What kind of a statement is that? The proof is on you to show if you think i'm doing something wrong, not otherwise. I can grab things out of thin air about people aswell. "Whose to say you're not corrupt?" **** me this forum is starting to piss me off

ROW players and US players are not on equal footing when it comes to flips which should be pretty obvious.

I also like how you gloss over who you are flipping with. I would love to see the list of who you have flipped with the most.

Pretty disturbing to me that Lock doesn't care that this is going on.

It's really not your business lol. If you want to find out I suppose you could watch the lobby and keep track of it.

Guess I'm not okay with possibility of collusion, other people seem to be fine with it.

Who are you? Where were/are you positioned on the leaderboard? #2 last month and couldn't catch me?

How are ROW and US players not on equal footing? Having deposit problems? You can even stack multiple bonuses ontop of eachother just like i can. There's really no difference here, please do point out how if so.

A "list" of who i'm flipping with? Whoever ****ing signs, idiot.

Yes, go ahead and keep track of it in the lobby, i'm online right now. You'll find i'm simply signing and then whoever signs next makes the sit&go start, i have no control over this.

WiCane, while it's certainly POSSIBLE that two players with high RB could collude for this promo, you can't just go around slinging accusations on a hunch. What actual evidence do you have?

To be fair, I remember McCormick speaking out against the flips, and then repeatedly asking on these forums if they would count, was it ok, etc.

The fact is that if you are shooting for 1st place in these promotions, you have to take whatever edges your competition is taking, or fall behind.

Many people feel that these should not count, or would even be better suited to the casino side.

I do think that 100%+ rb is worse for the overall poker ecology than fish playing against winners.

yea mccormick did nothing wrong.

hes also been a strong advocator against flipping but while its allowed there shouldnt be any hate against him. colluding is a strong accusation that should be brought up with proof too.

plus, hes been a class act by even sharing the facebook bonus that no one seemed to know about except him. without it no one would be able to compete with him by flipping this month.


the best ways for the flips situation to improve is this very situation actually. mccormick winning the main seat like he did last month. if a flipper keeps winning the promotions it would be pretty embarassing for lock (increasingly as more months go by before it gets addressed).

i stress that its really shady/poor judgment to remove it/modify it this month tho.

i think he means that us players cant withdraw large amounts like row can. thus trying to keep reloading like the row players will be disasterous as they have to pay .4 vig on the money they put onto lock as well. row players also have long withdrawal times but can withdraw 10k at a time. basically he is jelly.

obv this is not ur problem at all. just lolusa.

I do have to agree with WiCane here about ROW and US players not on equal footing because of deposit/withdrawal times. Yeah, withdrawal times are ****ty for ROW players too, but at least the average time is around 50 days + higher max.

It's a huge risk for US players to deposit that much and stack multiple bonuses because it'll be awhile until we even see that money; especially if you get blacklisted at WU and check is your only option. We US players have nowhere to fall back on, compared to the bountiful options that ROW players have.

The main problem here is how Lock runs their rake chase. There should be two separate rake chases for cash games and tournies, so it promotes play and not discourage cash game players to grind less.

combining that statement with theoretical (still wrong) accusations against mccormick makes it look like hes to blame tho.

how?

Unequal footing is only thing he's right about, but not sure how that matters. Bonus worth anywhere from 18-22% instead of 40%ish that it appears to be, and thats at 70% vig(math is right bonus loses more then half value). Then the rest of ur rb takes hit from vig as does profit. So although I'm sure Cane didn't do the Math he's right, Americans should fine it hard to flip profitably at max of 65%ish rb. But that's lock fault not mccormicks

As for who mccormick flips w it's irrelevant, A "deal" is just as likely to lose him money as win him money, maybe its got some psychological advantages and it would be cheap but who cares

think bigger travesty is cash games players will have no chance in the chase a week from now

what a scenario for a poker site. Offer huge rake back to entice majority of players to deposit huge amounts of money in a short amount of time. So Lock gets god knows how much real money and then pays players rake back in monopoly money. I might be crazy but that has got to be the biggest red flag I've ever seen. How can Lock afford to give over 100% rake back? Because they don't pay out... They offer grand prizes and huge rake back to create a frenzy of blind depositors chasing after a pipe dream that doesn't exist. 1 ^ for Lock.. may not be that stupid after all. As long as players buy into it, might work out great..

I shouldn't have directly accused McCormick of colluding. That is wrong if it came out like that and wasn't my intention. I apologize for that and he is not to blame in this whole mess. He is just taking advantage of a flawed system.

I will say I think 5-10 (or whatever # it is) players grinding +EV flips is a type of indirect collusion (although a lot of people will disagree with me and its not the players fault) but its something Lock opened themselves up for. Especially when their Lock pros are flipping. It also opens them up to be direct collusion.

The crazy thing to me is this promo would be more successful and make Lock more money without flipping included. Lock is losing money on the players that grind flips since they are 100%+ RB. Not only that but it discourages people from playing real poker to win the promotion since they can't win vs flippers. I just can't understand their rationale for allowing it. Yes its rake generated but they are losing money on it.

And as Jonathan pointed out, US and ROW players are not on equal footing.

Again I shouldn't have accused McCormick of direct colluding, wasn't my intention.

But the deal I'm taking about would simply take variance out of the equation and assure them of realizing their EV for the 2 players. Those two players would then be assured of winning the top 2 prizes.

Honestly can't exclude this. At the same time, though, it's far from everyone getting 100+% RB.. you need BlackVIP and a bonus to clear + the Rake chase levels are limited.

I also agree US and ROW aren't on equal footing, at least because you have some more money stuck then and thus more fear of losing it.

At the same time, though, it's far from everyone getting 100+% RB.. you need BlackVIP and a bonus to clear + the Rake chase levels are limited.

True, but they could be counting on the fact that most players are clueless to that fact. Its pretty surprising the places a blind sheep will follow.

Just my hypothesis, i think for now i'll just sit back and watch.

i mean the way its all advertised is very cryptic. You get 100% rb so u figure 70% vig still means you get 70% rb but it's substantially less then that, especially if you start deducting vig on win rate. Intertops has the better rakeback structure currently for heavy american grinders and that's ignoring all the money stuck in lock acct risk

Cane say 2 ppl didn't flip against each other but agreed chop 10k by some kind of equity chop, would that be unfair? None of it really matter I just hoenstly think of myself as a pretty ethical person and don't think colluding together there is all that bad in this spot. Lock allowing flips in the first place is where all disincentives and stupidity comes in, after that it all seems kinda meaningless.

You are looking at US players, most of the people flipping are ROW or Lock Pros (who I think probably have other means of getting money off the site). Row players can get 10K off about every 50 days. US can get 2K off every 50 days.

As for your second paragraph. Any type of colluding is unfair and unethical IMO. But Lock has opened themselves up to that being a real possibility with allowing flips.

I flip with McCormick around 150 games plus a day now ... are you saying I'm colluding too? the biggest raking cash game player for the last 5 months when the network and skins were all one??? I make an account on lock to take advantage of this and do both am I cheating too? let me
know cause your opinion means every thing to me