You are right. Brain fart on my part. I was thinking only 625 in the pot for some reason and we could bet, 3 bet all-in. Ignore that part of my post.

well, one method is if you flop a draw w 75s and he checks to you, just bet the minimum and if he checkraises you then you jam, like a reverse checkraise

or just bet so damn much your are pot stuck and gambooool

I feel like KJ and 88 are clearly better than 75 and a2 here, and like others said I'd also flat call a lot w/ 88.

88 is better than KJ for the obv reason that it can make a set, but having a pair of kings or jacks in a standard 25/50 game these days w/ 100bb stacks is like the nuts. It is sick to say that because of the implied odds of flopping top pair w/ KJo (lol) in a reraised pot in position, I generally prefer it. There are simply way more spots where I have 1 pair with KJ in which I would be happy to get it in, than where the board is safe and I bet / call 88.

I don't feel like getting into it, but I feel like 75s and a2s are so clearly the worst.

when you bet/call 88 a lot of the time you're stone dead or he has overs or a flush draw or whatever, when you bet/call KJ you've got a little more suckout potential vs an overpair, you have underpairs/hands you dominate stone dead, and if he's jamming overs you frequently have him reverse dominated

yeah thats a good way of saying it

very interesting thread

I think A2s is by far the worst. I think I like KJ best vs an aggro opponent bc u can bet/call TP and feel good about it. I think 88 and 75s are close but I'd probably take 88.

Against a tighter opponent I think 88>75s>KJ>A2s bc u can very rarely get it in good on the flop with KJ.

after reading some peoples' opinions who obv know what they're talking about, i admit i have had to rethink my response and might say different now. but i really don't agree with some of those who have said flat out and emphatically that one hand is better to have at this point in a hand than another. if you simply want to say one is "better" to have, pick 88, because it's technically a better hand than the others. you might be able to make a better argument for one, but i truly think that each hand has value and that it just comes down to what type of player you're against, how you play, and just personal preference.

ding ding ding

Against the discribed opponent I agree with most here that KJ seems to be the best choice, followed by 88 > 75s > A2s .. I believe that it's closer to choose between 88 and 75s than between 75s and A2s. The problem I see with 75s is that if we flop toppair or a midpair on a drawheavy board things can become pretty ugly playability-wise while with A2s the domination factor isn't as huge as ppl might assume due to the thinner Ax 3bet calling range of our opponent OOP and the decreased probability that Villain will flop an ace as well, plus we will rarely put it in with a pair of deuces but we have a reverse domination situation when flopping 2pair and definately get stacks from AQ/AK plus the nutflushdraw or a disguised straight ain't bad either. On the other hand we will rarely get action from worse hands when we flop toppair unless he check-raise bluffs a lot... Still A2s seems to be the worst of all choices to me but I have to add that I rarely 3bet with it and therefore my expierence is very limited.
I think if the scenario would play deeper 57s would benefit the most while KJ would decrease a lot..Therefore with 200bb I assume that the order would be 57s > 88 > A2s > KJ while 57s and 88 might still be close.. A2s ain't that good so deepish but the disguised 2pair/straight adds up and KJ will barely get action when flopping 2pair and we cannot jam so easily with an OESD...

Would be very interested to hear Jman's or Aba's thoughts because when it comes down to NL-theory those are the ones I would ask...

88>KJ>A2s>57s The first 2 for the reasons Strassa said but in general I think most are undervalueing A2s as you will often flop a hand like a FD and an OVER card adding to your showdown value greatly even floping a gutshot can often be only a 2-1 getting called by JJ or whatever and you will also sometimes catch him w/ smaller FD. There is also card removal effect less combos of Ax, AA (ect) plus ace will often be good when you flop one and i think you will be in a better position to play pot control w/ A2 on ace high flop than say 88 on a dry flop where you have to fear overs. Make the hand A5s and i think it is the best hand of the bunch, I also it would clearly be the best hand to 3-bet in the first place.

ummmmm....ill thread

*bump *bump

Jman give us your reasoning please..

I gave this thread some thought, and my most favorable hands to have vs a random opponent in position with 26.5bb in the pot.
is 75s, 88, KJo, then A2s.

I prefer this method based on the level of difficulty it is to play my hand on the flop. With hands like 75s and 88 the decision to bet or to check is much more trivial then it is on a hand like KJo or A2s.

Best reply so far in my opinion.

A2s is by far the worst and not even close
KJ def the best


KJ>>>>88>>75s>>>>&gt ;A2s

oh just noticed stingers post, agree 100% that against a tighter player 88 and 75s are better because KJ is likely to be dominated

88>>>kj>>>>>>>>&g t;>>>75>>>>>>>>&g t;>>>>>>>>>>a2

88 in position = printing money

Against a reasonably tight player, I agree with Stinger's post of 88>75... but I disagree with the common consensus that KJo is better then A2s for the last two spots. KJo is absolute trash oop against a tight reraiser, and I don't think you can ever feel comfortable putting in another 80+ bbs with top pair on a K high or J high board. If JK is good say on a J-high flop (they have AK, KQ, AQ, or TT/99) they will usually fold to a crai on the flop, and call when you are beat... etc... and at least with A2s you can flop an ace and not have to stick it all in when beat (usu...), or if you flop a flush draw you can safely stick it in 11% of the time without losing too much EV when called. I think its pretty obv that A2 suited >>> KJo oop here against a tight reraiser... and, in the parlance of our times (and posts...) "it's not even close!"

that said, how often do you really call oop with KJo or A2 suited? I try to convince myself everyday that I like money, and that I shouldn't do these things unless sex is involved.

Why would you ever say F-it and get it in... you think if the flop is Jxx someones folding JJ+?

I think KJo is the worst hand here because you can be dominated.

You are almost never doominated with 75s. 88 by far is the best. then 75s then A2s then KJo.

Edit: Sorry I thought we were calling the raise, not making it. Im a donk

i really dont understand why so many people are putting high value on kj i feel like if you flop a k or j you still could be easily dominated and every other flop is trash. a2 is ovious trash no need to explain that. i feel 75 really isnt that bad here. theres so many semibluff sitautions on the flop and you can always flop big. 88 i feel is the best. i believe its the hand where you have to least deal with a hard descion. if he pushes its a lot easier to fold or call then with a hand like kj when you flop a king.

88,75,kj,a2

Just cuz you don't understand it doesn't mean you do not need to read what Nosebleedexperts have to say..
Those games are extremely agressive ... You will bet/call if you hit a straightdraw, Toppair with J or K and of course any kind of OESD+Pair. In these games your opponent will check-raise you on the flop with overpairs, toppair, combodraws, flushdraws, straightdraws, midpairs, backdoordraws, overcards or occasionally pure air without overs. Given the amount of agression you cannot lay down toppair with such a good kicker against them, therefore KJ's domination isn't much of a concern to you. Plus if you hit a pair of jacks you have the 2nd best kicker, but if you hit a pair of Kings, there is mostly only KQ dominating your holding, because AK would have 4bet/shoved you OOP most of the time. Good players will check raise boards like K72/J72 rainbow lightly with almost anything, because they know you won't have a king often enough and might lay down a big pair .

I think we're at a point where Mr Galfond could come to life and explain his thought process, because that thread exist long enough now!

fisheye i really think your not taking into the fact that the oppenet called a big reraise. also how can you not put him on ak i really dont think ak would 4bet push where at best your racing against high pairs. king jack seems like a hand where you never get showdown value. if your getting it in on king high board with kj and get called your usually dominated.

yeah... ak never 4bet pushes, lol.

panzer you may be in the wrong forum