i was gonna mention that. hope this decreases troll traffic in this thread.

Don't you guys realize that its another black eye on online poker, and making it into a bigger deal then it is will just put us 2 steps backwards. I would like everyone on here to go to your closest casino, and sit down and play poker, and ask the people next to you if they play online poker. This is what you will here alot of.

1. It's Illegal

2. I used to but theres to much cheating going on, so I dont trust putting my money in there.

I know you can argue that this will help the online poker world by policing the games, which is probably true for the regs, but what about the casual fish that most of us make our money from? There afraid to play online poker.

If the media gets ahold of this we all lose, and you will rethink your stance. I really don't think Stox cheated. I bet almost every high stakes reg talks strategy with somone that they dont get involved in pots with. I'm not saying it's right but its far from jason Ho or zee justin, russ hamilton or whatever his name is.

this is true about casinos, 75%+ of ppl i talk to think its rigged/cheating.

Taylor's already addressed this. Here's a link: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...postcount=1638 . See the last two paragraphs.

I don't think this thread should be about CR because I think they're barely related to this at all, so I don't really wanna say too much about this. However, Taylor and I have been in contact about this stuff, and I thought that this quote by him was pretty telling:

So, yeah, I think that guilt by association is pretty silly here without any evidence at all to suggest that Taylor was part of this.

(Before someone accuses me of being buddies with Taylor and being biased in his favor, we've never talked publicly and I work for a competing company. I ain't biased here.)

Statements like these are false. Like I said in a previous post, what is the effect of card removal on the percentage of AKs, KK+. You use the data to make it seem like they are folding KK or AA some of the time, which is not true.

? if im reading this correctly hes not saying they are folding KK/AA, just perhaps not 3-betting them sometimes.

Again.. do we really need to nit it up about exactly what hands they 3-bet or can we just accept that they were obviously avoiding 3-betting each other to an absurd degree?

Yeah, we should definitely cover up the cheating instead. That would make online poker way better.

What a amazing post by Noah.

Show how they shared their hands to cheat other people out of money? Playing differently is incredibly suspicious but not a crime in itself.

Show a spot where X and Y conspired to get Z to stack off against say, Xs AA, when Y had trash.

Mack

Noah this was mentioned in the Stox forums as a possible reason did you look into standard raise sizes? I mean if Nick is 2xing with a shortstacker behind that's less incentive to shove and could explain a smaller 3-bet. I'm not sure what most regs do and I was under the impression that there were many regs who min opened in those games. Can anyone who's played in those games comment on the typical standard open size and Nick/Rob's standard open sizes with shortstacks left to act?

This is impossible to prove. There are legit instances where someone may flat strong hands to induce a squeeze and obviously Y can open light. The way you prove collusion is showing overall difference of play, not specific situations.

edit: obviously if they were idiots there could be specific situations where like they minraise back and forth to get someone to put more money in than they would but that's just so obvious and would be snap-caught by the poker sites and if not them the other players at the table. No one accused Nick/Rob of being idiots they're obviously very intelligent people who understand poker very well. They're not dumb enough to play a hand in such a way that it's obviously collusion.

ty ty ty Noah

nice work noah!

the case here is simple. nick broke the rules. there is no 100% way to determine whether there had been collusion or not unless Nick would provide independent people with hand history. what Noah had done is pretty impressive, however it can't be taken for granted unless full hand history is available.

this is a little forgotten word unfortunately, but in fact the case here is about honor. whether he still has some left or not. whatever reason it was, personal or business, greed, taxes, whatever... at the end of the day there is only one thing that Nick can do to have at least some chance not to lose his face, credibility and balls once and for always. do the right thing and prove, like a man of honor that he made a stupid mistake but he did not steal from people that he had gained so much from. this is as simple as that. whatever had been done, is over.. in his shoes I would fitght like hell to gain some respect... some credibility, some honor.. at the end of the day... that is what truly matters

I know that everything you just said there is correct, but if A minraises and B calls surely this is better for SB and BB.

Have there been a lot of incidences of another player squeezing and getting called by AA-JJ and AK say?

Surely if a player is known to be CCing only 8% of the time light/frequent sqeezes can't be a great idea.

Also is there evidence of patterns in seating arrangements between the two players?

I have read all of both threads and there are some very worrying individuals who seems to have a hidden agenda, I do not refer to OP who has obviously been at least thorough and I'm fairly certain fair.

Mack

In a perfect world, there would be no friends at the poker table, but poker isn't played in a perfect world. The most ethical way to handle this situation that I've seen discussed is the method that barryg employs when he and Joe Sebok are at the table together. Their agreement is to play straight up, ABC poker. One could make the mistake of thinking this is what Kinetica and 40putts did, but it's not. If you go through their HHs at TR, you will find numerous instances of trappy play, such as one opens from the CO and the other flats OTB with AA, AK, or KK (as per creedofhubris's example of how to gain an edge doing this) in order to trap the blinds. Presumably, when barryg and Joe Sebok play together, this never happens.

Amazing work and awesome for poker that people are willing to do this.

If this gets published outside of 2p2 please don't highlight the "cheating happened" part but rather the "cheaters will get caught" part

So cc AA on the button isn't abc? There must be no instances of them cc a single raise on the button with AA against anybody else?

Suggest you go spend a few hours going over hands at TR. You'll have all of your questions answered there.

i've not playing on FT, but a ton with littlezen over the last couple of months ... as a (knowledgable) shortstacker myself *grimaces* (which, i feel, gives me a great insight into this 3betting topic).

firstly, littlezen isn't going to be flatting with 20bbs, to allow another shortie to shove, if you were suggesting this, not sure if you were. i saw that waow, and others, have talked about not-folding (flatting) rather than 3betting and this is incorrect - as noah states in the report:

"With less than 25 BBs or so, a reasonable player almost always just shoves or folds against an open raise. In my database, LittleZen's response when someone open raised when it folded to him was to shove 10% of the time and call 0.8% of the time, so he clearly agrees."

onto the maths of 3bet frequencies vs diff raises. even if the other 49 regs opened 3bb and nick opened 2bb, it wouldn't make enough difference to explain the vastly lower 3bet %. nick would have to play **incredibly** tightly to warrant LZen 3betting as little as has been shown. noah's report showed that nick's open-raises were not tight. noah correctly addresses the relevant issues of PFR % and fold to 3bet %.

amazing work btw, noah. i hope both sites take a harsh stance on this, although i understand it might take a little while to come to a decision.

Again, you are missing the point. It's the overall trend that they almost never 3-bet each other at all. Not simply cold-calling AA.

the accusations aren't about flatting button with AA, and this wouldn't even apply to the 20bb games on pokerstars.

A+ Noah... Well Done from beginning to end. If people are still gonna try and stick up for the accused, then u will never persuade something was going on. Anyone who doesnt have thier head up there ass obviously can tell something was indeed going on.
Thanks Again Noah.

Guess I could be wrong, but I read it as they're only 3betting those hands. 3betting {KK+/AKs} or {QQ+} type ranges against each other, whereas they're 3betting much lighter against everyone else.

Seems to me that cold calling those ranges would be counterproductive to the "team" in most instances. And folding those hands to each other with other players behind, would probably erase whatever edge they gain from their softplay. No?