Live 10/20NLH game. I have over $7k and Villian has me covered... he is a capable player, who knows me reasonably well. He limps UTG. MP and SB limp, and I start to muck my 45 offsuit, having been distracted and forgetting that I was in the BB. The dealer points out I am the BB, and since the cards have not touched the muck, allows me to sheepishly pull them back.

The flop comes 678 rainbow. SB checks, I toss out $80 and am raised to $240 by Villian. It folds around to me and I tank a few tics. I think I am almost playing my hand face up at this point, thanks to my almost-fold preflop. If I call, he probably has me on a pretty small number of holdings... 5-8 being the weakest, and 5-9 being the strongest, with hands like 45 and 69 also possible.

Without more info, I think his range is reasonably wide: overpairs, sets, 2p combos, and the nuts... I am more than a little worried about 9-10 here, so I decide to raise to $800 - wanting to clearly define his hand, since I felt mine was already pretty transparent. At the time I thought a 4bet from him was unlikely... that he would likely flat with a set or the str8 here, and probably fold everything else (slight chance he calls with top 2).

He pauses and then makes it $2000. I was surprised, because I thought he would get more value by just calling with the nuts there, but at that moment I couldn't imagine he would raise with anything less, and I quickly folded.

But later... as I puzzled why he didn't just call... I realized that his line made sense for pocket nines. With my hand practically face-up, the blockers could let him put me on exactly 45, rather than 59, and he is creative enough to make that play there, expecting me to give him credit for the nuts... but if I got stubborn, he would be live to a 5 or 10. Maybe he also counts as outs the board pairing to let him rep a boat...

So what do you think… was I leveled? Comments/Critique/Thoughts on what you do (here and on later streets) if you don’t fold here?

How capable is this villain you speak of when he :
a) limps preflop UTG in a mega deep 10/20 live game
b) 4bets you on a flop, when you showed signs of weakness pre and relative moderate strength post, w/a range I think you're most likely ahead a lot of the time ?

Not a good idea to be 3betting in a 4way pot 350bb deep when its well known ur range does not consist the nuts..

jesus how did you fold a straight here. given the pf situation, there is going to be a lot of goof ass plays and over-assessments of hand values. him making it 2000 on the flop does NOT define his hand given that he imagines your hand is complete **** pf.

i would have rereraised his 2000. or call-donked turn.

don't 3b the flop please, and if ur gonna, don't fold to a 4b

+1 for live forum.. agree with lefort 100%
in a vacuum its prob profitable for him to just own u with any 2 here.
Also he prob 4bets cause otherwise the hand is super hard to play deep. any card 5-j really hurts his hand or his action.

I agree, in a vacuum. We know each other reasonably well though, and he never makes this play with any 2. Against a random I insta-shove. Of course, I'm not discounting the possibility that I overthought the whole thing and leveled myself.

fold pre, obviously

i think you need to ask jesus

"I am more than a little worried about 9-10 here, so I decide to raise to $800 - wanting to clearly define his hand"

You're worried he has the nuts here so you decide to put in another 560 dollars , don't get it.

Can't fold 3rd nuts. If I just call, I expect to have to call a turn bet. By raising, I expect him to fold most of the time, or call with a big hand (set, str8, or just maybe an overpair). If he calls, it may go check/check on the turn, and if the river does not pair the board, I feel very comfortable I have the best hand.

This guy is not a random and does not raise or call with any 2 here. Maybe 10% chance of air bluff at most.

Dude, you have a straight, ALL IN!!!!

3bet the flop is bad

Thinking that you got outplayed is even worse

Am interested in your thoughts. Can you elaborate?

you said that by raising you expect him to fold most of the time-

that most of the time are hands that you are missing value from thats why i dont like a 3b

whats wrong with calling and leading the turn?

And folding to a turn raise? Yeah, a very reasonable approach. The pre-flop almost-muck really affected my decision making in a lot of ways.

To my original question - do you think 99 feels more likely than 910? (not that there are not other hands in range).

cant tell if thats sarcasm

anyways if you cant b/c on the turn then just c/c the turn?

either way i think is better than what u did

o i c

The only logical purpose one would raise in this situation is for value. If you believe you're bottom end of the straight is ahead of his range, then raising here for value is an option I suppose, but raising for information is terrible. Personally I think you're too often going to build a pot where you're behind, or fold out hands you'd get value from on later streets by raising. Raising to "see where I'm at" is an awful way to play the game. Also, I think getting it in 350bbs deep with the ass end of the straight here in an unraised pot pre is generally bad. So call and re-eval the turn depending on if it pairs board/counterfeits the straight or is a blank.

call flop raise, c/r turn unless something funky happens (paired board, dummy end of straight, etc)

Can someone lock this dumb thread?

leading flop was is bad here.checkraise allday and stop there.

This exact same scenario happened to me in a donkament. 23 from the BB, flop 456r. It is sick having to call a 3bet on the flop when you know you're beaten but getting 3.5:1.

Personally I think the fold here is fine. Like you said the hand form the BB is very transparent. Personally I probably wouldn't have 3bet and spent that money on c/c two streets if the board didn't pair.

Also, next time you accidently begin to muck your hand but the dealer stops you, pretend like nothing happened and RAISE.

.

what is it that makes some players think poker is about figuring out who has the best hand instead of winning the most money?

hilariously the same sort of flaws exist even among high stakes players, just of a different variety