lol awesome thread

Bump.....

well that was a fun read

What's with all the constant talk about balancing ranges, a good player doesn't need to try and balance his range for christ sake.

I know this is an old thread but it's surprising that the "math" guys and not the "feel" players are the ones arguing for 100% button opening. I would think it would be switched..

The way I see it against someone that is always making the correct adjustments, 72o would definitely be a losing open. By opening 100% of hands, you're allowing the BB to be able to value bet postflop more thinly which means that he can increase the amount of hands he is playing preflop. So instead of playing the 50% of hands that OP had in his example, it would probably be closer to like 70% of hands or something.

This means that the button is losing quite a bit of money preflop that he will not be able to make up postflop even with position because he will very rarely be able to get value postflop and because the showdown value is so weak.

conclusion is, adjust to make the most +ev play otb, and therefore it can be profitable against some (bad ppl), and -ev against people who can exploit this range oop?

if we fold 72o pre what are we gonna be able to rep when the board comes 772 imo

aces

72 soooooooooted ofcourse

i think its more like saying u get the button everytime vs durr but u have 72o every hand do u think u will be +EV? or if u played 100 million hands with durr and had 72o 500,000 times otb would it show a profit.

thats actually not even remotely what its like saying.
that example is horrible.

what?

please explain

correction
if i was going to make a post this weak i would be less cocky about it


" Playing exploitive adjusting back-and-forth and furthermore discussing this is really not very intersting. "?!?!

so we should only go over marginal hand histories where "if its really that cose just call" -rbk ?

or should we change this forum to what do hsnlers think about tv and sports?

Im just repeating what I read in CTS's book.

well in ur analogy or whatever even if we was +EV opening 100% of hands that doesnt prove that opening 72o is profitable which should be obvious why it doesnt.what ur saying is that he will still be making money vs durr if he had the button everytime (i agree) but that doesnt mean its optimal and it is isnt vs durr.my example would better illustrate the EV of opening 72o while ur example doesnt really help the case for the point i think u are trying to make .

I don't mean to take a stand among all of you HU experts but some work has been done related to this subject that may be of interest. In Mathematics of Poker ( p136) Chen and Ankenman showed the results of an exhaustive analysis to determine the game theory optimal (GTO) HU jam/fold play. If I understand the table correctly, it that showed raising a 3xbb stack from the SB would have negative expected value (-EV) vesus GTO BB play for hands like 72o. In fact, in a jam/fold scenario, a 3xBB raise would -EV for roughly the bottom 20% of hands. According to the table, limping those weak hands seemed to be okay though. Its hard to say how this applies in real life setting but it does seem that the SB can start out a little behind by raising the weak hands.

i haven't read the book and i can't tell if you were levelling or are levelling me now so if you are gg i guess.

but it makes no sense to me that a good player doesn't need to try to balance their range. are you saying that good players have become so good at having balanced ranges in all spots they play that they don't need to make a concious effort towards it or something like that?

either way, i can't see how any player doesn't need to 'try' to balance his range as there should always be concious thought in regards to their percieved range and how to balance it in new situations etc.

:S

this debate is dead because the evidence is in. 100% button raising is a robust strategy, but often difficult to implement and sometimes not worth the time constraints it imposes.

cts is right if he says that balance doesn't always matter. he's wrong if he says balance never matters.

yeah sorry if im beating a dead horse here, but i'm aware that balance doesn't always matter. i just interpreted happystacka as saying that good players don't need to 'try' to balance their ranges as if it comes naturally or something.

meh

obviously i didn't say that balance never matters. i do enjoy this thread though.

would it be to much of a hijack to give us a few thoughts on this?
eyes a cr memb if that helps.

edit i mean if we had the button everytime obviously.

JA HOOOR!

Hoyt Corkins tried raising the button 100% yesterday vs. me in round 2 of the $10k HU championship, it didn't work well for him...

Problem solved guys! Nothing else to discuss here. Lock the thread!