I really don't think there is any justification for shoving the turn.

then think about it and get back to me because there is some justification and it's good.

I've thought about it a great bunch, can you please tell me why you would ever shove the turn? just never see CTS folding better, calling worse, and the hands he does have that we beat seem like the classic W/A or W/B because we have the nut flush draw. I literally can't think of a single hand that works.

Are you suggesting we shove the turn as a bluff?

You shove the turn if you've already decided you're going to stack off with the hand and think the likelyhood of him bluffing the river is smaller than the chance he has to catch up with whatever hand he is going to shut down with.

boom

CTS is well known as being "the player that takes the unbluffable board and still manages to bluff you on it." The most possible outs he can have is 6ish with the oesd. I think his riverbluff frequency certainly outweighs that, but I'm interested into why bobbofitos suggests a shove.

Edit for boom: So you think that he has 9T or QT and he bluffs the river with those holdings with <16% frequency? This is cole mother ****ing south!

I was definitely not advocating a shove, just merely explaining the cirucmstances in which I think a shove would be appropriate.

Of course, I even mentioned that in my post when I mentioned w/b w/b and we have the nut flush draw! I'm looking for bobbofitos's interpretation on CTS range/frequencies.

My response was not opponent specific whatsoever. There are times when shoving is a viable option. Generally calling is the best option. It's pretty much that simple.

okokok, fair enough. I agree completely that at times shoving is a viable option. I also agree that calling is the best option. I assumed that your response was opponent specific because the title of thread had CTS in it, lol. Doesn't make sense for you to give a non-opp specific response. This could be an easily value shove vs a partypoker drooler who will snap call with 7dTc. But it isn't vs a drooler, it is vs cts.

I've railed CTS for hours obv, and just don't see him give up on many rivers after firing the first 2barrels, and obviously knows what he's doing. And because you have a blog on leggo, assume you gotta be somewhat familiar with CTS game, and are good obv. It just boggled my mind that I could think shoving would be so out of the question vs CTS and you said it might be good vs CTS

I really like shoving the turn here

fold trn

can somebody explain to me alaei's statement here..

if we believe that the lieklihood of him bluffing < than the chance he has to catch up, why would we shove.

If this is our read, that he doesnt bluff river.. its an easy call and fold on river if he bets.

Conversely, if we think he bluffs a lot on river then call and call again.
I don't see any scenario that shoving the turn is viable.

Why the hell would we decide we are stacking off if hes not bluffing the river often, seems like a flaw in logic to me.

This is a pretty sick thread. I'm in a favor of a call on the turn for sure, but I am just totally lost if he bangs it in on the river. Probably fold, but I really don't know...

I think it's an easy fold given that OP and Cole have played few hands in which Cole is the aggressor.

Just because he would fire the river if he were bluffing doesn't mean that makes up enough of his range to justify a call.

wait a sec I might have to take that back-- I imagine he'd play gutshots/9T with a club exactly that way, so it's not quite so easy

lets put ouselves in Coles shoes he has good image to bluff OP plus this turn is gin to fire another barrel, honestly when does he miss this bet.
does he bet with his whole or atleast most his bluffing range?
does that justify a call on turn?
I say call

+1

I hate shoving this turn unless we are a superuser and can see he has KJ.

I feel like this turn hits a lot in his range. Calling looks pretty strong so if we call the turn I think folding most rivers would be the best option. Not even sure I like calling the turn to be honest. No real implied odds. Hitting a J isn't going to make us feel any better nor is an A. On this turn his range is 88/22/QJc,QTc,Q9c,JTc,J9c,97c,T9c, other random clubs/bluffs. Not sure if there are enough combos of bluffs in his range to justify calling here.

the rage was just barely contained, but its still impressive. he was right as usual too.

If offsuit connectors (ie T9o) are in his pf range and he c/r's it on this board fairly often then this is a call.

I think cts squeezes with JJ, but isn't AJ in fact a better hand to hold than say KK or AA for card removal on the flop?

But AJ still is the bottom hero's range that can make it to the river

But what is he trying to get hero to fold? A JXc AAc QQc etc? Maybe It's enough of his range to justify Cole shoving. Esp if he tanked turn..

Maybe you're right but IDK, I doubt think offsuit connectors make up nearly as much of Cole's range as the suited stuff. But he probably fires turn with any QT, any 9T, etc, and probably shoves river for value if he hits since OP's UTG opening range probably contains close to no flushes on this board. So it's a real mess. I'm not a huge fan of taking a line that loses the absolute maximum to Cole's value range.

edit: He probably shoves river for value with sets and even perhaps 2pr...

Also, re: the turn call-- I doubt Cole pays off a club river nearly as much as people think

Is raising the turn with KKK alot worse than calling? I'm kind of torn between the two