Yes, I see you really thought this through and your arguments are solid.

And how would you police someone sitting at his desk with 2 computers-- one logged on PokerStars playing and one with a HUD running?

Well, one can't open more than 5 (4?) tables without logging in for a reason. Still, nothing stops "his mom" to create an account to watch "her son" playing.

The point is: the only way to ban HUDs is to make tables anonymous (which is obv terrible for high stakes).

Anyway, people who want to discuss HUDs can do it in the appropriate thread. What's more important now is getting some feedback from Nick.

Is the discussion about fairness or something else? Perhaps I missed it.

You can use a HUD by opening HEM on another computer, then going to the replayer of a hand history with whichever villain(s) you want to see stats on. His stats will show there.

It's about making changes to the games that the players want. Anyone educated on the HUD issue knows it's only going to create a situation where a bunch of people cheat unless games go all anonymous-- I don't think players want that. I wouldn't be completely opposed to banning HUD if it was enforceable. We have to be pragmatic here.

Would it not be incredibly easy to ban a HUD by just not allowing text HHs..? Seems pretty easy, allow them in replayer format only, that certainly won't upset any recreational players.

I'm basically with you that I think it'd be a good thing to ban, but you can't ban it if it's not easily enforceable-- last thing we need is something else that scum will be able to use at the cost of anyone with a moral compass.

edit: I'm under the assumption they would keep text HHs in house for the use of their security team.

...

+1 to everything KcTc said

as I read every suggestion itt I cant help but think that no matter how good they are (some of them are very good) nothing is actually being heard by Pokerstars. If they dont do anything when we report scummy regs breaking the rules, or dont do anything when every single reg that actually cares about the future of online poker tells them to ban seating scripts, why would I believe they're reading and considering what everyone is saying here?

I would venture to guess that if they got rid of text HHs, people would soon create a "Text HH script" and it'd be the next underground software revolution.

Lets justify the software that gives us a HUGE advantage over the recs and then throw a stink the second different software costs us money. No hypocrisy here at all.

Boom. K10 is dead on that fixing these problems will go on forever until you address the real issue and just give everyone 2 cards and the option to fold, call, raise. Why are so many regs so scared of playing without their computer aid? It's like a bot that doesn't do the actions for you, but will give you all the input.

FTR I use a HUD because there's no way to keep up with all the regs analyzing your play away from the tables and using pop up stats in game, but I would love to see them banned.

I have the highest respect for K10C but in this case he is just proposing something that is good for his bottom line as we all know he is one of the very few regs that does not use a HUD. Also arguing that you cannot ban scripts if you allow HUDs is just hillarious. One has nothing to do with the other whatsoever.

Using a HUD is just an automated way to collect information on other people that could in theory be done by taking notes in every hand. Now that is very difficult when multitabling but a recreational playing 1 table would have enough time to collect the same notes on people that a HUD does. Not to mention that there is nothing stopping him to get a HUD himself, one has to be pretty ignorant to not know that they exist.

How did we even get from discussion whether Zoom only is good for NL50/100 (and other high stakes) to a discussion about banning HUDs? Would be great if people could stop derailing this thread to blatantly advance their own interest. If you want to discuss some other topics important to you, then please start a new thread. Actually I would welcome if mods could step in and moderate this thread a bit to keep it focused.

Zoom is bad....


because no more history, no more reads developing,no session gameflow (for example its not possible to find out if someone is on tilt)

2nd game is super fast if you play other games beside zoom you can not make good descions once your timebank is down to zero seconds. this might also make it unattractive for rec. palyers as thy have nearly no time to make descisions once timebank is low.

I am 100% sure that rec. players also think the same: as the zoom table are full of regulars most of the time and only in really rare cases a fish finds its way to zoom.

Its a different game than the poker i love to play. its more like a video game or something and not a traditional poker game we all love.




other donwnsides are that where is no more incentive to start a game at all. you just start playing once one or more weak players are in the zoom pool.

Pretty sure the mile long threads we had about scripts in the past when they first were beginning their viral infection on the site the script supporters main argument was how can you ban scripts and not Huds and other programs allowed.

I tried showing how it all ties in in my previous post.

I would be surprised if more than 25% of recs knew where to get Huds and how to use them and that they even exist whatsoever. Most of the recs at high stakes are successful well off business men who spend zero time on forums or strategy sites and just enjoy the game of poker. They watch it on tv and then get the itch. But I'm sure they heard all the news in the past about ftp/ub and in the back of their mind are aware of the sketch stuff that is possibe.

None of these arguments apply to HS zoom with a small player pool.

If you think this is not the exact same case with "scripts" or whatever you want to call them, you're just not well informed on that matter. I mean of course I have no interest in telling you why you're wrong, but you couldn't be more wrong.

And anyone can buy a script just as easily on 2+2 as they can go on HEM.com and buy HEM. That argument is crap.

Stars should do whatever is right for their business, and everyone should stop with the entitled attitude. I think Zoom sucks. I won't be playing it. But Stars owes you nothing.

i thinkk thats true nowerdays were are a ton of guys palying 50/100+ if fish are playing 20+ people are on the waiting list the the zoom pool would be at least 30 people. otherthing when does a zoom game stars? how many palyers do we need to start playing. today i joined 2/5 zoom i was 2nd and no game started. and i am wondering how many people you need to start the game

It can run with 4 players although I think if everyone has the 3 handed box checked it might be able to run with 3.

How did you join the 2/5 zoom second? That runs 24/7 and I think the fewest entries I've ever seen is about 50 during the very dead hours.

+1 to frhly, and we do need a choice at lower stakes too (between 3-4-5-6 max and zoom, not only zoom). thanks forhaley!

If you want to use seating assistance software after they ban it (hypothetical), go right ahead. Regs will report you.

Regarding the second bit, everyone already knows this. But this is a thread to respond to this new "All zoom at high stakes" idea, so that's what [some] people are doing.

Since you think you know how to hypothetically cheat a HUD ban but not a script ban, I'm here to tell you that I know a bit more than you about this and both are trivially easy to cheat. That's a fact. There is absolutely no question in my mind on exactly how to do it. Just because you don't know doesn't mean it's not possible. And that's what Stars knows, and why they haven't invested financial or human resources trying to do something that punishes the people that play by the rules while rewarding the ones that don't, costs them money, and does not a whole lot for them except satisfy people like you who have been whining for years now. Remember, you and people complaining are not a big part of Stars' business going forward. Don't expect to be treated as if you are. If you don't see that, or know that, get used to it. It's something you'll have to come to terms with sooner or later. Poker owes you, me and everyone else nothing. And Stars owes you, me and everyone else nothing.

If you want to understand what Stars is doing/why they're doing it you should know who is running the show. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but that's where Stars is headed.

I am curious what the purpose of the thread is. I sort of thought it was "well this is unfair so we're doing this" -- so I pointed out that MANY things, including HUDS, are VERY unfair to recreational players and people do/use/employ these tools to their advantage since they know how to - and there's no outcry on those matters because most of the whiners are the ones doing those things. I am amongst these people -- but at least I can admit it's not fair and I benefit from it.

I always find the annual ban script threads fun because it brings out the blatant hypocrisy in people. I thoroughly enjoyed the numerous applications I've received from people who called me "scum" "cheater" and any number of other things less than 18 months ago. Right and wrong change in a year I suppose, right?

If the goal isn't fairness, but rather overall experience, then I would say fine. That makes sense. But then I'd say the overall experience of getting crushed by someone using a HUD and anything else under the sun isn't too fun either. But nobody wants to talk about that when you're doing the crushing. Which is why there are 0 threads/posts about that from the King Whiner except a throw-away "I'd consider banning HUDs" -- as if it was your decision to make.

And as everyone has pointed out, the overall experience of playing zoom sucks for most of us. Or else we'd be doing it already. So at least I can agree with you there.

I realize it's easy to circumvent a seating software ban. You can code something that maximizes the relevant table, makes a loud noise, and moves the cursor on top of the desired empty seat. You can code something that only takes a God seat x% of the time, and it does so randomly between 1.3 and 3.8 seconds, and randomizes the spot on the open seat that is clicked. There are probably at least a dozen other things you can do.

However, it's not so easy to do it and not garner suspicion from the guys who play the games day in and day out in the hopes of getting a fish. They'd report you, Stars would investigate, and cheaters would get banned. They wouldn't even need proof-- after all, they owe us nothing. That is the system forhayley proposed and the one so many are agreeing with.

The only hit from "I'd consider banning" in this thread is from your post-- so I'm not sure who you're quoting. If you were trying to quote me, let me do it properly for you.

Meaning if Stars made a thread tomorrow that said "No more software as of Jan 1 2014", I wouldn't be complaining. I'd wonder what their thoughts were on enforcement methods and would ask questions along those lines, because I'd assume a big decision like that wouldn't be made lightly.

TwoShae -

You're on about level 1.5/10 here. You may be a god amongst men at poker, but you simply don't know what the hell you're talking about and reflect a complete lack of understanding of what is and isn't technologically possible.

You simply have been making comments about the seating software I pioneered and continue to develop for years now that had and has absolutely zero basis in reality or understanding. I'm comfortable saying I have a very, very good idea of what can and cannot be done as far as detecting seating software, and I would say that I'd be fully comfortable playing on Stars even if they were "banned" or something - from the perspective of, Stars isn't going to "catch" me and I won't be "reported" - not from the ethical perspective of whether or not it is/isn't right. I can't speak for all the home-grown crap people use. I bet you could eliminate a lot of that, which would be a net positive I guess for me personally.

I'd honestly suggest that as we all grow up a bit over the years, you might consider the idea that you don't always know everything about everything in poker. In your case, it especially sucks because just yesterday someone I was speaking with spoke highly of your personality and intellect -- just not when you're not talking about poker (re: your personality).

If you didn't take the lead in trying to build a "script" with some guys while publicly disparaging them, then actually have the audacity to petition to ban "scripts," then leave the petition and in the same thread announce you and your "best players in the world" friends (or something like that) were going to build a script and have the last laugh, you would be a bit more credible.

Isn't it a bit ironic? I mean don't you get that a huge number of HSNL and HSPLO players want to work with us and don't really care about anything besides making a living like most normal people. And the people that don't know about this stuff were complaining 2+ years ago and are still complaining - but now offering their expert advice/solutions, like a losing poker player offering free coaching. And the few people that were making things and working hard and actually figuring these things out are still the ones who know a whole lot more about the issue to this day?

I'm honestly curious why you believe yourself to be even remotely credible here as far as your knowledge of seating software goes.

Zzzzzz

Circumvent …The old “reach around.”