5/10 9 handed live game, hero has $4400, villain has $3000. Mississippi straddle on button for $20. SB folds. Hero is in BB with KK and raises to $60, villain raises to $160, folds back to hero. To 4-bet or not to 4-bet?

Villain is a white male in his mid to late twenties and definitely has respect for hero's game. Hero is a white male in his late twenties that is definitely not a "mark" and it seems unlikely that villain would try to isolate/bluff me without a premium hand. His range is virtually limited to AKo+, JJ+. TT is HIGHLY unlikely. There is a good chance that he will fold AKo to a 4-bet and isn't going to play for stacks with QQ or JJ. He may call a 4-bet pre-flop with them, but I don't think we're getting 300bbs in against them without being beat.

Is calling ******ed? The problem I see with 4-betting is that it allows him to play perfectly against us post-flop. He won't be losing his stack when he has QQ and JJ, but we will be losing ours when he has AA. It seems calling pre allows him to be his QQ and JJ with confidence and allows us to get off more cheaply against AA.

Someone set me straight please.

Forgot to mention villain is in hijack.

aint nothing wrong with calling and playing some poker..
if u've seen him 3-bet in position a lot with suited connectors i might wanna 4-bet here half the time but if not calling is better than 4-betting

Why people keep mentioning the race as a significant factor to analyse the players?

I think pre should be bigger.

What is hero's 4-bet range here, and what does villain think hero's 4-bet range is?

What is villain's 5-bet range? Would you expect him to flat call a 4-bet with AA?

If villain knows our 4-bet range is KK+, then I'd say we need to expand our 4-bet range but just call this time.

If villain's 5-bet range is only AA, then I'd say we should 4-bet and fold to a 5-bet.

I don't see what's so horrible about getting AK to fold, or making JJ or QQ put more money into the pot while they're behind.

It sucks that we're OOP, but button doesn't necessarily want to play for 300bb with one pair, either, so it's not like we have to play for stacks after we see a flop in a 4-bet pot this deep.

^^^ This is spot on. Just because we 4-bet doesn't mean we have to play for the rest of our stacks, even though it sucks because we're out of position. May as well get JJ and QQ and possibly AK and TT to put in some more money while they're behind.

I think the other reason I didn't four-bet was because I was being a bitch and didn't want to lose 300 BBs with this hand. But, as the above poster mentioned, 4-betting doesn't necessitate going for broke this deep, although it's going to be pretty damn impossible to fold against AA if the flop comes 832.

Lol "being a bitch". It's called playing low-variance poker. You're also completely under repped when you flat and can play the hand a myriad of ways post flop.

I would call this time but definetly start 4betting him light relentlessly after this till he adjust.. also i would start opening at least 3.5x pre when he straddles the button.

Just to clarify, villain is in the cut-off and is NOT on the straddle. Had he been on the straddle and 3-bet me, I would 4-bet this all day.

Flat and c/r all non ace flops maybe?

I think both are fine. don't think QQ or JJ are folding to a 4bet and although AK might fold like people said we don't mind that as its hard for AK to pay us off much post. However QQ and JJ may play pretty scared post and i think we do let villain play little too perfect against us. Also if he ever 5bets anything other than AA, some weird bluff, AK or the other KK is possible too and we fold thats a pretty big disaster equity wise.
Flatting keeps your ranger super wide as you shouldn't be folding much here being as deep as you are. and as long as you trust your postflop play i like it more.

[QUOTE=johnyarmless;47627709]Why people keep mentioning the race as a significant factor to analyse the players?[/QUOTE

I feel people think info can be gained from the distinction between Asian and white players, perhaps. Otherwise could just be flavor text for the story....

definitly like a call here better. it better disguises us and like you said, a 4! allows him to play more perfectly and that is NEVER good obv.

Does that mean you guys are never 4-betting, ever?

The problem here is I assume you don't 4 bet often very light? I like a 4 bet here if villain has seen you get out of line in such a way that he would think you 4 bet AK or have bluffs here a lot. Not to say that 4 betting AK is getting out of line but that your range is def (to him anyways) wider than AA or KK.

If there is no history such as described I like a call much better. Not thrilled about his 3 bet sizing either. And hate to 4 bet and watch him muck JJ face up.

AP call>4bet unless you have history or look visibly tilted.

pre $120 and 4bet

I am still honestly curious to get an answer to this, because I suspect those advocating not 4-betting are literally never 4-betting anything.

Every body is different. I would be 4 betting this spot at a high frequency but not everyone does. And if I had happened to be at this table for hours and hours card dead and "situation dead" meaning I haven't been active at all, and I didn't have a history with the players seeing me as widely aggressive, I would probably just flat my entire range. Including AA.

It's really kinda game flow/history dependent here for me.

Did villain limp then 3bet? Does that widen his range?

What hands would you advocate including in a bluff 4-betting range here? AJo? KQo? A5s? I kind of hate the idea of 4-betting any of these hands OOP, but you all tell me. What is your 4-bet bluff range?

Also, FWIW, I would almost always 4-bet AK in this position since it plays more poorly post-flop than KK. So I guess AA and AK would be my 4-betting range here.

Villain 3-bet cold. Was one off the Mississippi straddle.

I would have a very polar 4 betting range here. A2-A5s and maybe Sometimes AT or AJ. As for value Id probably go with KK+ AK.

Also disagree that since he may respect your game that he never bluffs you here. I do think his range is polarized and that he's not likely 3 betting a hand like KQ or AJ for value.

Which of your 4-bet bluff hands are you even opening from this spot (UTG+1)? I assume opening A2s-A4s and ATo here is more or less spew. Does that mean that the ONLY hands we 4-bet bluff are A5s and AJo? I assume it makes more sense to call AJs than waste it as a 4-bet?

I dunno I wouldn't call AJs. It's a 4 bet or fold for me being OOP. I would open the small suited Ax probably 50-70% of the time depending on the table and my image ect. Tougher tables would be a fold. The weaker the table in general the more hands I open from all positions. And yeah probably not opening ATo.

What would you feel if you were ~150 deep?