People saying villain wouldn't check here as a value line as much as betting: What makes you think sauces calling range is any wider than his betting range?

For the very reason it is common to check back weak hands on the flop that are better used as bluff catcher than as value extracting hands.

i.e. his hand looks a lot like 2nd pair on the flop that wouldnt be looking for river value. Although, that changes if hero's percieved range contains more TX air hands that didnt cbet flop but def would vbet river.

I doubt villain thinks he's getting a call out of sauce with those hands anyways is my point. Hes worried about sauce checking back a ten.

I think its a fold and villains range is pretty **** wide on the river, any flush and any boat without a ten.

To be clear, Tx's and bluffs are likely to be in his betting range

i would fold. seems like too ridic of a line for him to ever be bluffing and after u b/c turn i doubt he c/r bluffs river. seems like he has the boat or flush here very often.

I think your riverbet is too thin.

IF he c/r a T on the turn, then it's gonna be a big ten (KT/AT). So against that range you won't be valuebetting trips. You're generally reraising a straight on the turn, leaving your river valuebetting range a flush or a boat. You have the nut worst flush.

It's an ok spot for a river c/r with a monster because you're expected to flat a river lead with a flush, and valuebet them still.

He can't value check-call against your bluffing-range, because your bluffing range is small compared to your flushes or better, IF you bet (as you will check behind the rest of your range, often).

only thing im gonna say for now is: those of you who think villain puts me on a flush, your ****** out of your mind.

look at the board, sooo few FD combos which arent huge on this board, i spose i can have like T2cc and whatnot as well, but even thats a bit of a stretch and certainly not an auto check behind for me, or well, anyone.

i'd call he never thinks u have the flush and prolly thinks he can get a 10 to fold with that kind of shove

This puts every flush in his possible cr range (as I said earlier) and makes it more likely he would just bet with bluffs.

I think id call because there aren't too many hands you can bet for value and more importantly that he'd expect you to bet for value. I would also expect him to highly discount the fact that you could be value betting a flush here and take that into account, probably also widening his river bluff CR range

edit: do you know anything about his leading tendencies? if you're checking back a lot of flops like this, I'd expect most semibluffs to just fire turn to try to fold out A highs and other poop with no equity. I really just don't see how he can give you a made hand strong enough to bet the river when your hand just looks like pair+ weak draw on the turn (and probably not a fd as you said!)

I would fold because I think that he just bets rather than checking most of the time when he wants to bluff. I would generally think it possible that he gave up on his bluff and then when you bet the idea popped in his head that a c/r bluff could be good, but him doing the c/r in 4 seconds probably makes this less likely. Also I think a river c/r is a pretty solid line with a flush or better in villain's shoes, and if he's tricky and good he'd do it pretty often.

I really don't know how the word "straight" hasn't been said more often in this thread.

I also don't know how people adopt the logic that if villain is aware that it's potentially possible for us to have a flush, he will never do this as a value-bet with worse. We're 100xBB deep, not 250xBB deep.

Cool hand sauce. Not gonna get into too much, but I'm in the call camp. He'll have 56 and a counterfeited 2 pair hand sometimes. He'll expect you to fold Tx a lot given his double c/r too imo.

i think its worth noting that the opponent never actually shows you he has a hand. or in other words, the only time he just calls your is the $200 preflop. on the flop he didnt commit any money. on the turn he raised you... and of course on the river he is raising.

I think this is super close, and I've gone back between call and fold like 5 times.

I'm pretty sure villain c/r his entire turn c/r range on the river. If he has air its an awful river to bet because he's getting called too much and if he has better than Tx its a great river to value c/r because you always bet a T.

A few questions about his frequencies.
How often does he c/r flop? Turn?
What % does he 3bet, have you seen him showdown mid/small pairs did he 3bet them or flat?

I think a lot of the responses in this thread advocating a fold show why this is a decent spot for villain to bluff.

87,74,84 all might play this way some % of the time. AT seems like a reasonable hand to throw in his range as well if he is never going to expect you to have a flush and a hero call is pretty difficult on this river but he knows you will vbet any T yourself.

Add in the fact that he will reraise with his sets preflop some % of the time and this seems like an easy call without a sharper read.

I never said if I would fold or not...
I missed the C/R only taking about 4 seconds. I really doubt he's bluffing here and that definitely makes it less likely.

I think its difficult to disagree with the opinion that its a very good spot to bluff here by the villain and a move that probably isn't used enough, especially with 75% of you saying that its a fold.

Responders: no one gets any more specific reads until discussion peters out. disregard the river timing more or less, i wanted to give an innocuous amount of time

I actually do have more reads than what i posted on villain, but kept things deliberately vague for sake of discussion

i mean lets assume he never or rarely leads oop, that he almost always 3bets his TT+, and that hes thinking and capable of C/Ring a med wide range on turns since my checkback range is not so nutted on this board

assume im cbetting round 55-60% total and maybe 35-45% on this board, with a range he will perceive to be just about that same as you guys posting in HSNL will.

ding ding ding

I don't like calling the turn c/r or betting the river. When we call the turn c/r, we have the low gut shot and low flush draw on a fairly coordinated board. I only like calling the turn bet if villain is more straight forward. He seems tricky so I fold it.

I'm not going to get into a "call/fold" answer, because looking through responses it sure seems like I can't add much, but I'm in the "bet flop" camp. Your draw is strongest on the flop w/ overt fd and straight draw, but also you have 5 high. It will be tough to raise turn on a blank, (say a Q peels and he leads, it's hard for us to pretend we have QJo or something and are now raising) and if we hit it's a 4bb pot so who really cares?

i wouldn't mind checking 52ss because hey that hand sucks but let's bet because we have options if he raises and we still like our hand if he calls and hey if he folds we had 5 high!

What Ansky said + implied odds, folding turn is ridiculous imo.

Eh, its definitely not going to be a consensus. I find that against good players when I call this turn I lose a lot of money on the river.

As for betting the river, I think a ton of his check/calling range will just bet the river itself (Tx or the straights) so then when we bet, we are getting a c/r or a fold very often. I don't think we can call a c/r profitably here, so I think the bet is bad.

Fishy usually sits at 6 50/100 and 100/200 HU tables on Ipoker. Only played him once a short session but don't think he's that good (bit spewy).
I think I call against him.

Really tough hand.

Like Bobbo im in the why wouldnt you bet flop camp. I understand checking back fds on occasion but i wouldnt do it with a 5 high one with a gutshot.