Open Side Menu Go to the Top
Register
10/20 Very  Deep Spot with Top Set 10/20 Very  Deep Spot with Top Set

11-12-2008 , 05:31 PM
i agree that calling turn is the best decision as played ....in hindsight I don't like the shove. During the hand I was thinking if I call what do I do if I brick out, like the 8 of hearts hit the river. He shoves into to me do I make a crying fold/call. That and I thought if I shoved he might fold a straight, thinking I had a flush, if called I had outs. If I improve and fill up/hit higher flush does he pay me off on the river if he checks to me and I shove. I think so but not positive. Its a close decision I think
11-12-2008 , 06:12 PM
You do realise that you have 16 outs on the turn even against JTss which is the absolute worst possible hand for you?
I probably raise / get it in on the flop, but I definitely shove turn, because
1. I won´t fold on the river anyway.
2. If I just call turn, he may be able to fold if I hit.
11-12-2008 , 09:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rrich508
Well I shoved the turn b/c I didn't really know what else to do, I didn't like it later as I was thinking about the hand....he snap calls with J10 ss....we run it twice and I hit a higher flush the first time and hit a 2 to make aces full the second time.

He then goes on and lectures me about how bad young internet players play, we put to much money into the pot with bad hands. I was told I wasn't the one who cold called out of position with jack hi, and **** you I had a set. Which he goes off for like 30 minutes on me, and I told him the hand was pretty standard cooler spot. I then told him that I was going to go the strip club later and blow all the money supporting single moms. I offered to buy him a few dances, but he declined.

I was wanting to see if I had played the hand as bad as he say I did. I mean its a rough spot that isn't as clear cut as smashing the flop..imo..b/c of how deep stack we are.
lol he sounds like a douchebag.
2nd wtf at you thinking he folds KK/QQ on the flop?
11-12-2008 , 09:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mastr
call call call seems best line by far
agree
11-13-2008 , 03:33 AM
1. Bad raise on flop. Put simply, you fold out all hands that you WANT to come along.

His range includes any suited connector of spades with these stacks, I dont rule out 67, 89. 56, J10 etc. I think this could be an easy fold. You have all the information you can get to fold top set here. The combination of your raise PF and Flop-raise turns your hand face up. On the turn, you are calling an over bet for most of your stack against a guy who can probably fold river to any spade or card that pairs the board. Not to mention, there are probably better spots to commit this much of your stack.

I understand it is top set with a redraw, but if you cant fold top set here then I dont think you are folding it on any board other than a 4-flush. If that is the case, then you shouldnt play above 200BB stacks.

Easy fold, show him the aces when you muck and look for better spots against the weaker deep-stacked players.
11-13-2008 , 04:05 AM
cliffnotes:

hero flops the second nuts in a 3bet pot. everyone tells him to raise the donk bet on a very drawy board where numerous turn cards can either defeat him or kill his action

hero then proceeds to explain how villain did indeed in fact flop the nuts

everyone then proceeds to say how calling the flop is by far the best play
11-13-2008 , 04:07 AM
and i cannot blv for one second that a flop raise shuts down everything except the nuts. this would be so unbelievably exploitable and u could raise ne donk lead in such a game no?
11-13-2008 , 04:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcl
hero then proceeds to explain how villain did indeed in fact flop the nuts

everyone then proceeds to say how calling the flop is by far the best play
i don't think anyone is saying call the flop because we should be afraid we are beat...
11-13-2008 , 04:42 AM
Given how obviously terrified OP was of playing for this much dough, I think raising the flop against an experienced player who's comfortable in the game would've been a mistake. If I wasn't giving off a scared money vibe, I obv raise flop to rep AK and look to get it in.

I don't think I would raise the turn, though. There are only 8 cards at most that kill your action vs. a hand that will call a shove (lower set), and he will value bet all other cards on the river (other than As or Ks) if he has a set and he's not a spineless wuss. If the spade rolls off, I think you just have to lead for a small amount relative to the pot and hope to get called. Otherwise I call turn and call/bet river.

Primogenito, do you really think calling w/ JTs is a bad play there? I don't vs. basically anyone except a player who I think is much better than me. Versus a kid who's playing over his head and probably has a range of top 3% of hands, I would never ever fold this deep.
11-13-2008 , 04:46 AM
thought i was crazy till the call down line came about late in thread. i think its def best here.
11-13-2008 , 05:01 AM
Some people need to do some HW on the "maximizing expectation" theory
11-13-2008 , 05:02 AM
For those that don't understand why hero should call down you people need to do some HW on the theory of maximizing expectation.

Last edited by ArmenH; 11-13-2008 at 05:16 AM.
11-13-2008 , 05:35 AM
I dont understand why this is such a hard fold. I understand that, in a vacuum, maximizing expectation dictates a call but lets look at the circumstances from the villain.

He is OOP with 600BB stacks against a fairly decent player. Also in a game where there are tons of soft spots. Is he really going to take this chance with a hand you beat and risk 600 BBs? Is he really ever going to run some insane bluff OOP against hero in a game like this?

If you turn the cards face up, then it is a fold on the turn. I dont know many other situations where his holdings are so clear. Take your maximizing expectation theory and apply not just to the line taken but the relative weakness of players in the game. There are way better spots!
11-13-2008 , 05:40 AM
fold? really?.....really?
11-13-2008 , 05:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by zeosgjv
I dont understand why this is such a hard fold. I understand that, in a vacuum, maximizing expectation dictates a call but lets look at the circumstances from the villain.

He is OOP with 600BB stacks against a fairly decent player.
Eh, I think you should re-read the post. He is on the button and villain is leading into him.
11-13-2008 , 07:19 AM
i dont get why everyone wants to just call on the turn. for me this is a fairly easy shove.

we can be pretty sure that he is almost never bluffing with this line, and always betting better or worse for value on the turn. and even if he is bluffing he most likely wouldnt fire the river because there wont be much left compared to the potsize.

he will call all of his valuebetting hands on the turn to a shove (shove is less than a minraise, and he basically puts us in a push or fold spot)

but if we just call on the turn he will be able to get away at some rivers even though he will get great odds on a call.


I just dont see any upside in just calling on the turn. Or am i missing something??
11-13-2008 , 07:20 AM
What's the consensus on his flop lead? If his lead is brilliant cause he knows Hero flopped something, why not just go for the ole cr and be in the same 'I know you hit something and I'm still betting into you' situation, except with more dough in the middle? And oh yeah no need for wtf overbets. Check Hero 750 him 2500 turn 4k shove river 'hmm bout eight and a half. oh yeah of course, you only have five left'.

Sure it looks strong and all but what doesn't. Which would you be more likely to call with AK in Hero's spot? My idea or the TWO overbets in a row? And since it doesn't seem right for AK to go all the way either, if Hero checks behind a lead on turn and river should get the same result.
11-13-2008 , 07:22 AM
armen,

I meant the villain, read the sentence before where I said let's take a look at this from the villains POV. This was my point. Would the villain be running a bluff or putting himself in this spot, while OOP, without being ahead? 600BBs deep in a game with softer spots.....

also note 5500 into 4k ....less than 2:1 for hero to call...this villain knows EXACTLY where Hero is at...

Last edited by zeosgjv; 11-13-2008 at 07:34 AM.
11-13-2008 , 08:25 AM
this hand really isn't that deep. uve somehow managed to put in 500 of ur 12000 in preflop. AKA uve put in about 4% of ur stack in preflop. if u raise pot preflop online u put in about 4% of ur stack in preflop too. who here doesnt stack off AA on AQKss with 100bb in a single raised pot?
11-13-2008 , 09:32 AM
As played, I think you have to shove the turn... villain bet 5.5K of hero's 10K stack... he's never folding anything after betting that and he might check fold his hand on bad rivers like a spade if he has middle or bottom set, or if an A or K rivers and villain has JT. I think you're minimizing value by not shoving as he's never folding to your shove on the turn.
11-13-2008 , 11:03 AM
lol

unless someone straddled for like 150, deepstacked bigass over-3bet that gets called != 100BB standard open that gets called
11-13-2008 , 12:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveyJay
i dont get why everyone wants to just call on the turn. for me this is a fairly easy shove.

we can be pretty sure that he is almost never bluffing with this line, and always betting better or worse for value on the turn. and even if he is bluffing he most likely wouldnt fire the river because there wont be much left compared to the potsize.

he will call all of his valuebetting hands on the turn to a shove (shove is less than a minraise, and he basically puts us in a push or fold spot)

but if we just call on the turn he will be able to get away at some rivers even though he will get great odds on a call.


I just dont see any upside in just calling on the turn. Or am i missing something??
hmm didn't realize it would be such a small shove, in that case i'd agree with you
11-13-2008 , 03:08 PM
i.e. this hand isnt that deep.
11-13-2008 , 04:08 PM
Only weak vaginas call the turn. If the river bricks, he shoves and you have a tough decision. His shoving range includes under set and possible semi-bluff which you can get rid of by raising turn. Worst case scenario you get it in with 16 outs. Not too bad. In my expert opinion, flop should be raised and prob end up getting it in on flop. As played, good turn raise. IMO

      
m