On my first hand at the table I raised AK from the SB after 6 people limped, flop 967 checked around (4 called PF), hero bet 200 on a 9 Turn, Villain tripled my bet behind me, folded back to me and I added another 1k to his $600 bet, and he folded. I didn't show.

I proceeded to play very laggy, opening lots of pots, c-betting a lot. Showed down some trash. My image was not good and I got the sense villain was waiting to snap me off. He seemed pretty avg.

Onto the hand...

Hero is BB with QT, villain limps utg, three more limpers and I check.


Flop T92


Checked to MP who bets 100, hero calls, villain calls

Turn 6

Hero bets 200, villain calls, original bettor folds

River Q


Hero bets 400, villain raises to 1200

Stating the obvious but he can't have a set with the flop and turn action on a drawy board and KJ doesn't make any sense either unless it was hearts (and even with KJhh you would expect a raise out of him on the flop or turn. Also, he would have to be pretty sloppy to be open limping KJs UTG)

It doesn't really make sense for him to be raising much for value. Is he the type to think that JQ is the nuts and that you will pay off a raise with worse?

It looks to me like you are up against 78s or missed hearts and I can't imagine that he is bluffing with hearts or value betting worse less than a quarter of the time.

I call. I would also have led for more on the river

"Is he the type to think that JQ is the nuts and that you will pay off a raise with worse? "

Thanks for the post. To me thats a pretty high level thin value raise and I do not think he was the type of player to pull this off. Maybe I just don't give live players enough credit for high level thinking though

smells like this

This hand implies that his range is very wide becasue both his made hands that beat you and his bluffs consist of hands that arent standard limps/opens from utg.

8J and KJ got there, which are pretty weak openings from utg. This implies there are several other draws in his range that he would be turning into a bluff on the river.

I would call this.

Has he been limping a lot of hands in EP?

If he is truly gunning for you he could have been going for a failed limp RR. I would not discount a BPP, AQ, KQ type hands from his range. If he is thinking these types of hands are the nuts...

imo he almost never has KK+ here with the raise on river. He could have QQ+ but there is only 1 combo.

u didnt bet that much onn the river which might encourage him to think a pair of queens is the best hand... that v simple reasoning but def a possibility.

I agree, but I don't total discount a piss poorly played KK+ either, but that makes up a fairly small part of his range. IMO he shows up with AQ or KQ most of the time, and the times he shows up with KJ, oh well.

What I am unsure of if this is a value shove or just a call.

gah. i folded. sounds like basically everybody thinks i should at least have called?

I think folding was a mistake but not lol bad.

I fold here - it's a limped pot, and he's playing like he has the straight. Too many hands beat you and you can't put him on a hand given it was limped.

bet the flop, turn bet is weird

Seems like a pretty clear fold. You describe yourself as having a LAGy image, Villian is less likely to bluff you than he is the rock across from you at the table. It really doesn't matter if you have top two pair here or any random 1 pair hand, he is never value raising worse on the river. 7,8 and 8,J make up such a large portion of his range here its an insta muck. If you folded river, every street was played quite well. If you check the river too him, you are pretty commited to calling, as he could be value betting worse at this point. He'll probably bet more with all his made straights then you did on the river, and it would end up costing you more for the same information. Added benefit of betting river, he can def. call with worse. nh.

From your first example it is obvious villain can't handread ( nor do you, what are repping man? + the donkish turnbet at hand 2 confirms my suspicious thoughts about yer) meaning impossible to know anything meaning call.

Just wondering. Would live players generally flat call the turn w/ the nuts on a flush board and raise or bet bet the river if a blank comes??

If I was the villain in this hand with the nuts, I would be betting all the way. But then again I am a agro donkey too...

He can have KJ given the action, especially if its hearts. Plenty of live players limp KJ, even offsuit, utg. And the type that limp KJs utg are often the type that don't raise combo draws because "they never hit for me anyway."

But even with that said, call for the various reasons mentioned.

i think this is closer to a fold then most.......but i would probably still call..... i think its pretty close, online i woudl snap call, live plays more passive but i i think you still have to call....


unfortunantly

from my experiences w 10-20 live, this is gonna be 78 a lot.......i dont think folding is bad..... its one of those spots where you have to know the player a bit more to really have a read, thats the beauty of live, some guys just wouldnt ever bluff here....ever they just dont.... and some habitually go nuts in spots like these, not very often does a live 10-20 villian EVER have anything close to a balanced frequency of bluffs/value raises on that river, its usually heavily weighted towards one side or another of the spectrum whihc then makes this an easy call, or sometimes, an easy fold..........

i dont know if i like the donk with q-10 on the turn, and i would consider leading the flop.

but as played a river fold isnt that bad i dont think, but i would call, and then make a mental note of how he played it win or lose.... if your beat, oh well.........not much u can do with this little info....

"not very often does a live 10-20 villian EVER have anything close to a balanced frequency of bluffs/value raises on that river, its usually heavily weighted towards one side or another of the spectrum whihc then makes this an easy call, or sometimes, an easy fold.........."

ding ding ding. this was at commerce and my read of commerce donks is that they don't bluff rivers. when they do this on the river, imo, 90%+ of the time they have either the nuts or something they think is the nuts. that meant here he miiiight have a slow played smaller two pair, that he thought was the stone colds, but other than that, i was toast. at the time it seemed like an easy fold for this reason.

I play at commerce also, and you are completely right that they are on one side of the spectrum or the other. The 10/20 is not nearly as loose as the 5/10 game there, having said that the hand still is bugging me. I am having trouble seeing which hands he is betting there that we can beat--but then again its commerce--land of the desperation missed my draw bluff. I think I might look him up with a call and chalk it as good info if we lose---How many times do we have to win to make this call profitable?1/3?

Seems pretty close but I fold because I don't see bluff raises on the river very often. I would guess he had J8 or 78.

I would probably check the turn, and I would probably lead the flop, but I don't really know why. Any smarter players want to explain why I feel this way?

I don't think it's that unusual in a spot like this where he might be hoping for LP to raise the turn since LP was the flop aggressor. Also, if he's really gunning for OP then his line makes some warped kind of sense, hoping to get another bet on the river from OP before putting in the raise.