yeah pretty much the range I used... In game I snaped thinking that he wouldn't just shove a J on a "dry" flop. Was wrong obv, one less leak in my game I guess

in the world where people look at their EV line and deduce that they are losing because they are running bad, because of variance and don't bother looking at their game. EV line does not tell you if you played well or not! a confusion a bit too wide spread IMO

ev line infinitely better gauge of how you are as a player than your actual results. i know youve had this argument before

yes sorry I go on a bit with that one, i don't hate the EV line but the conclusions that people sometimes draw from it. I like to bring it back sometimes. People forget. Running under or above EV does not mean you played well (or bad). I think last time we ended with this simplistic example:

You get in first hand with 94o preflop get call by 84o. Flop is 884.

you were a 70% fav and you are massively under your EV line. That does not mean you can deduce from your EV line that you played well and it was correct to open shove 94o first hand.
So running under EV mean just that. it doesn't mean there is nothing wrong with your play and you should keep openshoving 94o 1st hand.
There are players thinking that because they are under EV their losses are due to variance only and there is nothing wrong with their play. it's not that simple.

we also pointed out that the EV line is calculated hand vs hand but we play vs a range not a hand and that it only accounted for one type of variance in the game and does not tell the whole story (ex: non all in pots, preflop hand distribution and so on...).

edit: you changed your avatar I didn't realized it was you.

Top 5 hyper turbo regs on Stars? Something like: SkaiWalkurrr, Serkules, Lotte Lenya, Berndsen12, Xereles?

and what about the times where you have 84o and they have 94o on 884? over a large sample size, believe it or not, it does even out. obv there is card distribution variance, which is unmeasurable (atm?!), but still EV line >>>> winnings line ainec. this is also the reason why your EV line sometimes has a boner for 1k games and BE for 1k games. it obv feels like "i played poorly for that stretch" and "i soulread everyone for that stretch", but it's most likely just card distribution w/ slight up/downswing moods to make you play slightly better/worse

I agree but still, my point is you can't look at it and draw the conclusion that you played well or not. It has absolutely nothing to do with you running above or under EV. what you are saying is correct but what I am trying to highlight is there is no causality link between "I play well" and "I run under EV". it will even out (over a insanely big number of games) but that doesn't make openshoving 94o or 84o 1st hand a good play.

Some players have been arguing that you shouldn't look at your game when you are losing if you are under EV because it is explained by variance. They are right that you are experiencing bad variance but that doesn't mean you are playing well. You could also be playing real bad (like the player in our example).

I think for a lot of people the EVline is the equivalent of a bad beat story. It helps persuading yourself than your losses are outside your control. Unfortunately this is not necesssarely so.

You should be looking at your game, but only because everyone should always be trying to improve.

A -1% ROI player with a 2%EVROI should look at his game the same as a 5% winner with a 2%EVROI

emmmm genher just because the EV line isnt 100% accurate over a small sample doesnt mean "it has absolutely nothing to do with how well we are playing"...

can you look at the EV line of the player in our example (even over a large number of times that 94o vs 84o situation occur-note also that this situation will only occur once every 29000 hands or something) and draw the conclusion that is play was correct?

cant be 100% sure of course, but it has a lot to do with how u play...

you can draw the conclusion the play is terrible when looking at a larger sample because the red line will be absolutely tanking due to the massive number of times the 94o push is called by holdings it does not dominate.

well this is true the situation will occur once every 2000 Hypers (on average) and over a large number of times this situation occurs, the EV line will tank.

I don't get it? you will be dealt 94o the first hand of a hyper 0.9% of the time IIRC. where does 2000 games come from?

quick linecheck...

ya you are right I was refering to the 94o vs 84o situation "levelling off" not really relevant to your point.

edit: read it wrong NVM

I think XR/fold the flop is better. The way you played it screams " I have a weak hand"

yep last time this subject was brought up you told irrelevant examples and you're making the same thing all over again, genher. Just say that keep studying biaaatch and don't make those examples which only undermine your own (possible) good arguments.

i'm donking flop (I'm OOP, can't check flop behind), I'd expect 7+ and draws to raise flop and don't see 5x or 3x calling 3 barrels.

ya sorry I read it wrong first time and I edited the post. I think you didn't see the edit

that's the drawback, if you don't give examples it's not clear, if you do because they are simplistic, people pick on the example and miss the point.

I could argue that one all day long but I guess I just have to leave it to rest.

So i'll just end with this: I just think people should be very careful when looking at their EV line. it's not the "be all and end all" of indicator. Far from it! its multiple flaws have been debated many times (it’s not accounting for preflop dist, not calculated vs a range, takes a long time to be meaningful, doesn’t take into account non all in pots).
I dislike the sacrosanct attention that people give it. it's easy to draw the wrong conclusion from it or to think that it is an accurate representation of variance (I could probably pick 10 examples in this thread only) and that could be VERY damaging to one's game.

For many people it is exactly like a bad beat story. A way to comfort themselves in thinking that their losses are due to factors outside their control. IMO this is not a mindset that a winning player should have.

^Very well put.

Just curious what other sites have superturbos??

this post remembered me to recommend this book in this thread for the fellow hyper players: Fooled by randomness http://www.amazon.com/Fooled-Randomn...9882159&sr=8-1 specially useful for us because of the nature of hypers

Im almost finishing it and some chapters are pure gold, anyone has another book like this?

very good recomendation.