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Hyper spot #7 Hyper spot #7

04-28-2014 , 10:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Torg0th
Why? You can overbet turn and overbet shove river.
In a multi-street game, it is mathematically proven that we can bluff the most often by using the same bet sizing (w.r.t. the pot size, for example 2/3 pot on all streets) that allows us to jam on the river. Roughly speaking, this corresponds to the idea of arithmetic and geometric average. And in that sense, the "optimal" bet sizing in this spot is something like t52.

That said, problem with betting small on flop and then overbet jamming the river is that you couldn't have many bluffs in your flop bluffing range, at least not against a competent opponent who can float and x/r a ton if you did that. People keep saying they can get away with t30 on these dry boards because they will get tons of folds, but that also makes it very cheap for me to x/r bluff. Actually, I think it's a mistake for BB not to have a x/r range if SB is gonna bet close to 100% of his range. Also, I doubt there are that many value hands that you will play this way (betting small on flop and overbetting on later streets).

And why is it a mistake not to bet most K high on this board? Are we going for 2+ streets of value with those hands?

As for the bet sizing, let me ask you this. Forget this hand for a sec, and suppose we are betting 2/3 on all streets, jamming the river. The board is static and our range is polar so that we will go for 3 streets of value. If we had 20% of value hands all along the way, how often can we bluff on flop in order to keep villain indifferent to calling and folding?
Hyper spot #7 Quote
04-28-2014 , 10:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by icoon
-Striving for a gto approach is the only objective way to argue unless we agree beforehand on some opponent tendencys that we wish to exploit.


-Agreed about the blockers thing. If we want to checkback some nuts here it makes most sense with hands that block most of the checkcall hands and if we need to checkback air it makes most sense with hands that dont turn into the nuts often and antiblock the checkcall hands.

-How come you are so sure about the king high hands, too hard to continue on the turn vs a lead with k4o?

-You can overbet turn and river but you get less value that way than if you bet all three streets. See multistreet polar vs blufcatcher toy games
Man, you were quicker than I am. And I thought I am a fast typist too!
Hyper spot #7 Quote
04-28-2014 , 10:47 AM
Interesting discuission itt.

If we're going for a 3 street range from the flop, betting 2/3 pot each street, how would you approach these issues?

1)Hitting a mediocre value hand with our flop bluffs. Or, hitting a monster that also blocks a lot of villain's turn c/c range.
2)Dealing with small check raises, flop & turn. If we're betting for geometric pot growth, we want a polarized range with a certain bluff to value ratio(I may be very wrong). Can't small raises screw with that ratio?

What about a bet-check-bet line? How would you decide, whether to bet turn or check turn with a value-ish hand(that isn't going for 3 streets)?

How would turn card affect our ranges? (if it improves villain's float range / if it blanks)
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04-29-2014 , 12:17 AM
Gotta be aggressive to win headsup
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04-29-2014 , 11:42 AM
No money on A72r, everyone solid
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