Do we need reads to double and triple barrel? - Page 2 - Heads Up SNG and Spin and Gos -- Two Plus Two Poker Forums

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Do we need reads to double and triple barrel?

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03-10-2012 , 07:25 AM

#26

seboutchhh

adept

Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 924

+1 on what has been said.

Board is good but bet less ott, you wan't his range to be the weaker possible to have a good amount of fold but by betting big you are narrowing it!

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03-10-2012 , 07:27 AM

#27

miniwiz

old hand

Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 1,971

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freakg

yo miniwiz the point is "readless" i know all those other factors obv helps you take decisions, but im trying to think about readless optimal frequencies, against near accurate ranges of xc xc x?

good stuff motown ty

At these stakes i'd imagine people call too light so readless i wouldn't bluff.

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03-10-2012 , 07:59 AM

#28

crimsonchin

veteran

Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 2,096

I don't think you need reads per se, in general, to make a bluff. If you pick up reads early that give you a good reason not to bluff a good board thats fine, but if you wait for good reads before ever making bluffs I think you pass up too many good spots. Besides, making the bluff will probably give you the read early on.

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03-10-2012 , 09:12 AM

#29

fastcolt

veteran

Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 2,446

yeah dont get why people are even claiming this isnt a good board to bluff

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03-10-2012 , 09:23 AM

#30

Siriusz

journeyman

Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 379

Quote:

Originally Posted by fastcolt

yeah dont get why people are even claiming this isnt a good board to bluff

Cuz he got called obv.

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03-10-2012 , 10:13 AM

#31

siiCards

centurion

Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 186

i am not sure how the $14 play

but I like the idea of betting 120 on the turn then give up.
if I would go 3 streets i would make is smaller on the turn 70-90

edit: looking back at the board i think going 3 streets have better ev then 120 bet on turn still a +ev bet

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03-10-2012 , 10:36 AM

#32

crimsonchin

veteran

Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 2,096

Quote:

Originally Posted by siiCards

this is NOT the board to two barrel and give up on the river, just look at the actual hand villain has and think about it

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03-10-2012 , 10:52 AM

#33

Siriusz

journeyman

Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 379

Quote:

Originally Posted by siiCards

120 bet on turn still a +ev bet

I don't agree turn is a +ev bet if you check the river btw.

The way this board ran out a 3 barrel looks good, I'm not sure if it's +ev to 3barrel say an A high board on say A95shh/8c/3c readless.

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03-10-2012 , 08:29 PM

#34

DarkSide11

journeyman

Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 311

I have been looking at my HM history and it seems I am profitable when making double barrel on these kinds of boards but not triple barrel. Maybe because stationy players call down turn he will call down river wide. Although the sample is really small.

When I was playing my thinking was he does not have an Ace 90% of the time. A lot of Aces raise pre-flop and raise the flop. The reason I bet more on the turn is to get a bit more folds from him because I am happy to take it down. If I don’t take it down on the Turn I am willing to bluff many rivers.

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03-10-2012 , 11:40 PM

#35

TheLusty

adept

Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 905

Quote:

Originally Posted by crimsonchin

this is NOT the board to two barrel and give up on the river, just look at the actual hand villain has and think about it

Um, the lower the stakes the greater cred given to the FD even if it doesn't make sense? That's just my donkey low stakes opinion but just sayin' ... low stakes player are obsessed with the FD.

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03-11-2012 , 05:02 AM

#36

mela

veteran

Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 3,228

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSide11

This has been happening to me a lot. Do I need reads to do this? Should I not do this early in the game just in case I am playing a calling station?

Early in the game without much reads, you can't really tell if he's a big station or not

I like your play here, nh. You prolly have to triple barrel on a lot of river though to make sure he folds his 6x and most 7x.

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03-11-2012 , 02:54 PM

#37

crimsonchin

veteran

Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 2,096

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheLusty

Um, the lower the stakes the greater cred given to the FD even if it doesn't make sense? That's just my donkey low stakes opinion but just sayin' ... low stakes player are obsessed with the FD.

Sorry, what are you trying to say?

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03-11-2012 , 02:58 PM

#38

h1nt

old hand

Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 1,299

you can barrel and if he calls light, valuebet him hardly next game and win it back

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03-11-2012 , 03:19 PM

#39

erdnase17

adept

Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 758

imo you can double barrel this board if you have reads that opponent will fold weak made hands (middle and weak pairs). Equity wise most turn cards are going to help his flatting range and the river card does not help your range.

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03-11-2012 , 06:15 PM

#40

mela

veteran

Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 3,228

Quote:

Originally Posted by erdnase17

Wait, why is that?

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03-12-2012 , 07:29 AM

#41

Atomfred

enthusiast

Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 74

No, we dont need reads to 3barrel bluff.
Yes, this is a good spot to 3barrel bluff.
Bad luck in this spot though.

Id bet 90 ott btw.

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03-12-2012 , 07:34 AM

#42

Atomfred

enthusiast

Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 74

Quote:

Originally Posted by mela

Wait, why is that?

1. turncards overall improve our range. Why is that? We rep draws, he aint.
2. rivercard same thing. 4x imrpoves our range which includes draws. he doesnt have draws in his ranges cauz who would c/c c/c c/x draws?

to answer your question: its not.

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03-12-2012 , 11:41 AM

#43

erdnase17

adept

Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 758

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atomfred

I was thinking about this particular hand vs a hypothetical flatting range. But we should be thinking range vs range and our semi-bluffing range on this board certainly includes flush draws and what I said is not true in this instance.

Last edited by erdnase17; 03-12-2012 at 11:52 AM.

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03-12-2012 , 11:50 AM

#44

miniwiz

old hand

Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 1,971

If you bet turn,you have to fire most rvers. But i still say checking is better readless at lowstakes, where people don't really like folding pairs. And it's not like if you check turn you can't bluff river if it gets checked to you.Fish we'll be less likely to call a river bluff when they don't have much invested,compared to when they have a decent % of their stack in.

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03-12-2012 , 01:31 PM

#45

ohly

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 3,696

Quote:

Originally Posted by miniwiz

do you comfortably jam any Tx on the river? i think you should if triple barrelling is bad here, because people tend to play their monsters differently alot of the time and there is more 6/7x than Ax in their ranges.

bolded part: i disagree, one thing i noticed when playing some non-hypers again is that people tend to fold less often to triple barrells when facing a non-ai bet. the size of the pot seems less important than the fear of investing all their chips.

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03-12-2012 , 02:06 PM

#46

miniwiz

old hand

Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 1,971

how is it a triple barrel if we check turn.I was talking about checking turn.And tons of rivers we can bluff if he checks. Any 8+ that doesn't pair the board.

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03-13-2012 , 05:51 AM

#47

ohly

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 3,696

you argued that triple barrelling would be worse than b/ck/b, no? i disagree and explained why.

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03-13-2012 , 06:33 AM

#48

miniwiz

old hand

Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 1,971

i said we could bluff river if he checks.We can get some timing tells etc.
Just because this is a good spot to barrel at higher stakes doesn't mean it's good at low stakes. My advice is to try to stay away from triple barreling as a bluff pretty much at low stakes.Lots of times you end up doing it on the wrong boards,or not fire river after firing turn. Your main goal should be to move up at stakes,and bluffing in spots you are not really sure about at low stakes where people don't really like to fold,is not the best idea. Also you'll experience more variance,and that means your play will deteriorate because you get tilted and can end up spewing stacks.

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03-13-2012 , 06:54 AM

#49

Freakg

veteran

Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 2,611

not knowing what boards to triple barrel or not be able to complete the plan and check a river that should have been bet otherwise because his range is weak doesnt mean that triple barrel isnt profitbale at low stakes, itmeans you are doing it wrong (if you state those 2 reasons)

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