Hi everyone!

After a lot of talk we finally decided to implement the 100s divisions rule of division members being allowed to demand 3 table action from the trier.

60s division decided to change their rules regarding the amount of tables sitlist players have to play:


3rd Table Rules

- Members of 60s division are able to demand a 3rd table against upmoving players.
- Members of 60s division are allowed to decline, if an upmoving player denies a 3rd table.
- Members of 60s divsison are only forced to play 2 tables.

So basically cartel members don't have to play 3 tables but others have to.
Sounds fair.

What's the reason for this rule and what impact do you suspect it will have?

First of all I want to say that we are the third and last division with EV requirement that introduces this rule, both 30s below and 100s above have it. So to come and say now OMG why, OMG how unfair etc. is a bit strange.

Having said that I am not a huge fan of it, it definitely can be used to dodge action (this can back fire though imo) and it definitely reduces edges no matter how we look at it.

In terms of why now, let's say think about some very heated recent discussion regarding stars rules and you will come with an answer yourself.

To maximize the use of the excel automated decision sheet?

(don't answer that...just teasing)

I was just asking for the reasoning behind the rule.

If everyone agrees it reduces edges, do entry requirements then change? Or is the goal to make it harder to get into the divisions?

This one might be a bit cryptic for me to understand. But because Stars is proposing limiting/restricting charts and/or hud power, this rule was put into play?

I am guessing that kobmish meant that it would be more difficult to use GTO voice activated charts while 3 tabling in comparison to 2 tabling

i think the new rule favors the ones using automated charts....

jannik if they're voice activated and you're 3 tabling you often wouldn't have time to use the software for every or even the majority of decisions. Hypothetically.

depends on how fast the software is.. i have no idea..
but without knowing it, im pretty sure that the voice command software is designed exactly for multitabling.
otherwise it wouldnt be such a scary weapon evry one is talking about.

Fwiw, in the beginning users of Skier's software were playing very slow and only 1 tabling (I have no idea how it looks like now)

well who favors it even more, are ppl who havent worked out their ranges, and basically still play the old random ranges, by their feeling, so they have basically instant decision preflop.

(this is not defending of skier's software, or attacking any reg from 60s btw)

Some people think that the three tabling rule will help vs various ways of cheating your way in. One example is that it gets harder for people to live coach someone while they play if its 3 tables. Unless they control the mouse themselves that is.

But to be 100% honest with you, it wasn´t much of a discussion. 30s and 100s had introduced it ages ago and people started requesting that we had the same rule. We try to keep all the EV divisions very similar but with 30s being easier to get into than 60s and 100s being harder.

So to answer your question, we introduced it because others did .

Can you please publish and maintain an up to date list of cartel members and also ask them to unblock their stats on Sharkscope so we can see who the weak members are ? I am here because you posted this in the Pokerstars permitted software change thread in Internet Poker forum :

"Have a look at each of the applicable division threads on 2+2 - if the links to the members aren't posted, ask there."

Fwiw, I'm not in the $60s anymore but will see if I can help.

I agree that a link to the divison members would be good to include on the 1st page
As for unlocking sharkscope, I don't think anybody is obligated to do that.

Since I made that initial post, I would estimate 50 people have been able to make their way into one of the divisions so there is clearly it is possible for hard working people to target weaker members.

"As for unlocking sharkscope, I don't think anybody is obligated to do that."

Why isn't this an obligation/condition of being in the cartel/division in order to be fair to those who are trying to get in ? If you cannot publish the lists of members in the $60 and $100 groups please let me know who is running them so I can ask them instead. Thanks.

If you are in a division, you are obligated to play whoever sits you for 30 minutes+
Also, you can organise a session to play 50+ games vs whoever you want.


When you make it into a division, you nominate the weakest players you played and based on that, a vote is held and someone gets kicked out. In defending themselves, they typically post their EV results and if they don't, I'm sure you can draw your own conclusions.

This thread is observed by the $60s leaders who I'm sure will respond - i'd be pretty surprised if the spreadsheet of $60s players hasn't been already posted at some point in this thread so I'm sure with some digging you can find that link.

The $100s thread has a list of players on the most recent page

Tax issues, possible legality issues and family reasons are just a few of the reasons if the right to protect and do as they wish with their own personal data isn't enough for you.

"Tax issues" is wtflol. I hear it often, but it's insane to imagine the government of Netherlands or whatever needs to access sharkscope to check their citizens earnings, and without it they are oblivious. Or that even if it were the case, "locked" on sharkscope would actually apply to the taxman@nl.gov user account. And even if that were the case, Stars wouldn't instantly hand over an audit .xls upon request from a legit government body.

But yes, is is a silly demand that division members should unblock their sharkscopes when the same is not demanded of triers. Triers should determine weak members by testing them at the tables.

That division members screennames should be listed in a properly updated document linked in OP is undeniable.

Yes it is insane to imagine the government would need to access sharkscope to check a citizens earnings. It isn't insane to imagine that they may start investigating a citizen because somebody sees their sharkscope and reports them though, with the whole issue possibly being avoided with a locked sharkscope.

Here is the list of 60s div. members. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...Cb8/edit#gid=0

Perhaps you also need an ID (worst case driver's license) and everyone's full readless strategy? Looking at SS and judging by it is quite often not the smartest idea anyway.

Thank you.

It the cartel divisions are to be run openly and fairly then cartel/division members' results should be displayed openly so that people can see who they need to beat in order to get into the group. I understand that the cartel/division is designed to consist the best players who are there on the merit of their play.

PS Why is it called a "division" ? The term has no meaning used on its own. If it's a division of the cartels then it should be called the cartel $60 division etc.