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 Turbos. Weak Kx at about 12BB stack depth.  Turbos. Weak Kx at about 12BB stack depth.

09-07-2011 , 12:50 PM
miniraise calling is bad
I'd probably open shove K5 against this opponent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Air-Bear

It does not make sense that minraise-calling is worse than openshoving with K5o assuming villain calls all better hands and villain shoves equally loose or looser than he calls. This is assuming villain plays shove or fold.
So you want him to shove 96s over your minraise instead of him folding it to a shove?
 Turbos. Weak Kx at about 12BB stack depth. Quote
09-07-2011 , 01:10 PM
Yeah, that's better for my EV.

My first post is indeed not a direct answer to the OP, my apologies to the OP and those who got confused. I focused on "Minraising i didn't like, because he can 3bet shove some range which includes worse hands, but we will have to fold anyway (we'll need about 40%, which is hard to get with K5o)" and got a bit carried away.

I stand by all my statements though.
 Turbos. Weak Kx at about 12BB stack depth. Quote
09-07-2011 , 02:39 PM
lol you think you gain more ev when he shoves those 45% hands than when he folds them for an open shove?
 Turbos. Weak Kx at about 12BB stack depth. Quote
09-07-2011 , 02:41 PM
If villain holds 69s I'd rather minraise-call then openshove and make him fold yes. Not sure what you mean with top 45%, that seems like another question.
 Turbos. Weak Kx at about 12BB stack depth. Quote
09-07-2011 , 02:45 PM
Our equity by minr/calling vs. 96s is 1,37bb which is worse then the 1,5bb we win when he folds to our shove. So openshoving is best in that specific situation.

Last edited by Dane190; 09-07-2011 at 02:54 PM.
 Turbos. Weak Kx at about 12BB stack depth. Quote
09-07-2011 , 09:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dane190
Who, other then Air-Bear, do you feel haven't read the OP?
well me for a start or at least not properly
 Turbos. Weak Kx at about 12BB stack depth. Quote
09-08-2011 , 06:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dane190
Our equity by minr/calling vs. 96s is 1,37bb which is worse then the 1,5bb we win when he folds to our shove. So openshoving is best in that specific situation.
How did you calc this? I calced: 0.545*12-0.455*12 = 1.08 is the average amount of bb's we win if we go allin vs 96s and if villain folds to a shove we win 1 bb.
 Turbos. Weak Kx at about 12BB stack depth. Quote
09-09-2011 , 06:34 AM
Good points, Dane

Btw. another mistake people often make in these situations is not calculating EV from the beginning of the hand - we need to compare strategies here, not how much equity we have when we get jammed on.

Openjamming is guaranteed to be better than folding, so our EV for the entire hand is better than -0.5 bb (*).

If we minraise and our opponent jams for 12bb, then we'd need to call 10bb for a pot of 24 - so we'd need at least 10/24 = 41.7% equity to call.

But that's wrong. When we have a +EV option for the entire hand and are thinking about doing something else, then we also need to think about the EV for the entire hand of this other strategy.

So in fact, we need 11.5 / 24 = 47.9% equity when we get it in.

If we're above these 47.9%, then minraise/calling becomes clearly superior to folding - and openjamming, assuming we have fold-equity and/or positive expectation when he flats.

If we're below these 47.9%, then whether we minraise or openjam depends on how much fold-equity we have and how big our edge is when we get flatted.

For instance, if our opponent flats a lot and play fit-or-fold post-flop - or lets us limp and stab, then we can take a ton of chips off him post-flop, so seeing a flop becomes far better than openjamming.

So basically, our decision whether to openjam or minraise / limp depends on how he plays post-flop and how big our edge is.

Once we do that, then whether we minraise/call or minraise/fold depends on our equity against his jamming range.

And if we have more than 41.7%, but less than 47.9% when we call his jam, then we're losing chips and need to compensate for that with fold-equity and the chips that we win post-flop when he flats.

(*) Careful, that's only a sample number, we're actually doing a lot better than -0.5bb in ev for most hands. Most are between -0.5bb and +0.5bb.
 Turbos. Weak Kx at about 12BB stack depth. Quote
09-09-2011 , 09:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Air-Bear
How did you calc this? I calced: 0.545*12-0.455*12 = 1.08 is the average amount of bb's we win if we go allin vs 96s and if villain folds to a shove we win 1 bb.
Because there are only big blinds in poker.
 Turbos. Weak Kx at about 12BB stack depth. Quote

      
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