First hand.
Opponent silver star.

SB: 500.00
Hero (BB): 500.00

SB posts SB 10.00, Hero posts BB 20.00

Pre Flop: (30.00) Hero has 8 4

SB raises to 40.00, Hero raises to 100.00, SB calls 60.00

Flop: (200.00, 2 players) J Q T

meh spot, strictly against the broadway type flatting range you have slightly less than 40% equity and about zero chance of not getting it in, so you are slightly losing, but i assume there is some Ax and Kx type stuff in that you are flipping against, making your equity sufficient to go broke here. i'd just jam in the hopes that this maximizes the probability of him folding Kx or Ax, or maybe a low pp which he occasionally plays like that preflop.

Why are you 3-betting 84s (readless?) in the first hand of a hyper-turbo?

Bet/call

You could bet smaller pre

this

not an unreasonable choice at all.

I like this play. You could probably just call pre, but this sets you up for a nice range for 3bets the rest of the match. Also, the 9 gives us a couple additional outs if our opponent has some kind of 2 pair of mid-bottom pair.

wp pre

flop c/call is best imo as on this board we actually have close to zero fold equity given population flatting ranges and how much hits this board, so b/call doesn't accomplish anything since we never fold anything out.
On the other hand, readless villain is passive so you'll get a lot of free/cheap turn cards with great implied odds to boot.

maybe it is just me but i see tons of overjams when i check to villain in this kind of spot.

+1

i mean you are commited here, but overshoving is kinda weird. I like betting small the flop and shoving unimproved turns, there's still some hands in his range that are gonna call/fold but at the same time are calling 100% the overshove.

If he has a pair he's never folding to a shove but we can manipulate the part of his range that is elastic and will call flop but fold some turns.

I fail to see how our implied odds are good. Our clean outs might be diamonds and diamonds only (in terms of visibility)

Against passive opponents we can get folds from Tx or even some Jx on turn because they will hardly raise that on flop, as well as his draws on brick turn as well, if not always. And oh well, we have close to 40%+ equity, so we don't mind getting jammed on. Saying "we achieve nothing" isn't really accurate imo

c/c is def the worst option, openfolding maybe is worst idk

well my point is that considering we aren't ahead of his range with our hand and only have 40% equity, if we aren't getting any folds than betting serves no good purpose. We need fold equity to make betting good. Sure if you think we get flatted a huge % of time and then get folds on turn that's cool, but to me just seems so unlikely since I think you underestimate how many of those hands gii on flop because they are combo draws. Of the Jx Tx basically only rare T7 J7 or complete random spew that isn't a combo draw. And on top of that, I have some doubts that we can shove a lot of turns since we get so few folds and will have poor odds when we don't hit flush.

The idea behind c/call is that villain is made on this texture >90% of the time, and likely isn't folding any piece almost ever (i agree sometimes on turn, but even that is a bit hopeful and we won't get a large total amount of folds anyways) so we can c/call flop minimizing the price we pay and then be able to profitably c/f most turns when we don't hit.

I mean even facing an jam is fine, we have odds to call and ppl were suggesting overbet shoving here anyways (which if you buy my hypothesis is with <10% fold equity).

All in all depends a lot on what you believe pop tendency is on such wet boards. I tend to believe that a random will just go with the absolute value of his hand and isn't letting go much. If you think he can fold pairs to an open shove by all means open shove. If you think he will flat and fold a lot of pairs on turn, yeah likely that's fine since we get some folds that way--probably my first instinct line here.

I'm leaning towards assuming that villain plays fairly loose passively on this texture--he'll be loose since he has a lot of absolute strength (again it's literally >90% value hands vs most flatting ranges--basically everything has somethign), but overall plays passively because he's random. That means that c/call seems best since we minimize the cost to ourselves to peel since a large % of the time we get free/cheap cards and the rest of the time we were gii anyways vs him. Plus if he checks back we might have profitable bluff opportunities on later streets anyways.

I can definitely see b/call being very close tho especially if we bet really small sizing, it could accomplish much of the same as checking (essentially act as a kind of blocking bet) and maybe lead to better turn spots, especially if you believe that we will often face flop bets and they will often be decently large but won't often face raises. I just hate semibluffing with almost no folds and figure we can maybe do better

My question remains unanswered. Could someone explain why it is better to 3-bet 84s, the first hand of a match against an unknown, rather than flat? And what kind of range would you be NAI 3-betting in this spot?
How so?

your question was implicitly answered, but you won't like the answer: because 3betting non all in (probably) has the best expectation.

what about NAI 3 betting range first hand readless?