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15$turb: middle pair / draw / overs vs V cb 15$turb: middle pair / draw / overs vs V cb

06-04-2014 , 02:19 PM
Villain open close to any2 / cb 95%.

My check / raise 1/3 - 33%.
He folds to 2/3 - 67% of my check / raises.

How u play that hand vs this V?

PokerStars - $14.39+$0.61|20/40 NL (2 max) - Holdem - 2 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

SB: 1,026
Hero (BB): 1,974

SB posts SB 20, Hero posts BB 40

Pre Flop: (pot: 60) Hero has 4 A

SB raises to 80, Hero calls 40

Flop: (160, 2 players) 5 4 2
Hero checks, SB bets 100, Hero ??
15$turb: middle pair / draw / overs vs V cb Quote
06-04-2014 , 07:52 PM
call flop. how frequently does he barrel turns/rivers?
15$turb: middle pair / draw / overs vs V cb Quote
06-05-2014 , 04:29 AM
He is 2nd / 3nd barelling light looking on the board structure. So probably he will barell ~ 80% of turn cards.
15$turb: middle pair / draw / overs vs V cb Quote
06-05-2014 , 10:00 AM
yeah, i think even though our hand is vulnerable, we have to keep his range wide and let him barrels, esp when he barrels that much. just too thin to x/r flop for value, gotta play poker.
15$turb: middle pair / draw / overs vs V cb Quote
06-09-2014 , 11:43 AM
Can't see folding or raising an option here. Just call and hope for the best
. He made that bet very easy to call,not even 2/3 of the pot.
15$turb: middle pair / draw / overs vs V cb Quote
06-09-2014 , 12:23 PM
Just jam preflop given his frequencies.
15$turb: middle pair / draw / overs vs V cb Quote
06-09-2014 , 01:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by FirEontheMountIn13
jam pre
Quote:
Originally Posted by crazyriver
Just jam preflop given his frequencies.
Hi! I am new to this format, so I could be far off, but this is turbo and they are still 25 BB deep. Shoving ace-rag vs villain's min open seems lol-bad as it will let him play perfectly vs our shove (fold all his weaker hands, call all hads that crushes us)
15$turb: middle pair / draw / overs vs V cb Quote
06-09-2014 , 03:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Polar Beard
Hi! I am new to this format, so I could be far off, but this is turbo and they are still 25 BB deep. Shoving ace-rag vs villain's min open seems lol-bad as it will let him play perfectly vs our shove (fold all his weaker hands, call all hads that crushes us)
That's not really an argument.

Check how much you're doing 3-bet shoving vs someone opening close to 100% and compare it with how much you can make postflop (for example from your db with similar hands and stacks). I think we're making way too much 3-bet shoving here to miss this opportunity.
15$turb: middle pair / draw / overs vs V cb Quote
06-09-2014 , 06:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by crazyriver
That's not really an argument.
I was not trying to have an "argument". I admitedly am new at the HUSNG format and I am more looking forward at being wrong and showed why I am wrong than to win an argument.

I elected to develop on why I percive shoving here to be a very bad idea. Again, I may be way off on my technical approach, but here are some of the thoughts that I wrote down:

The problem:

HUSNG TURBO
Blinds 20/40
Effective stack: 1026 chips


Villain opens 80 (20+60) chips
Villain has 954 chips behind

Hero?



Scenario 1 hero shoves:

If villain's 3bet shove calling range =10%
EV= (90% 120 chips=108 chips - (10% X 64% 954 chips = 62 chips)
Our shove is +EV 66 chips

If villain's 3bet shove calling range =20%
EV= (80% 120 chips=96 chips - (20% X (villains range equity =63%) X 954 chips = 120 chips)
Shove is -EV 34 chips

Scenario 2 hero calls:

160 chips in the pot. We have 57% equity vs any two (+EV 91 chips)

On this flop, our hand has approx 63% equity vs villain's any two

Villain cbets probably 80% of the time

Once villain cbets, we have 260 chips otf and our hand is a 63% favorite vs villains range (+EV 163 chips )

At this point, all options are still opened: check-raise smallish, check-raise shove, call down villains barrels leaving his blufs in and all this we can do while still having draws to a wheel, 1 overcard, backdoor nut flush.
15$turb: middle pair / draw / overs vs V cb Quote
06-09-2014 , 07:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Polar Beard
Hi! I am new to this format, so I could be far off, but this is turbo and they are still 25 BB deep. Shoving ace-rag vs villain's min open seems lol-bad as it will let him play perfectly vs our shove (fold all his weaker hands, call all hads that crushes us)
I'm not sure you're using "play perfectly" correctly here.
Anyway, to "play perfectly" vs this specific hand, you have to fold everything but:
AA-22,AKo-A2o,AKs-A2s,KTs,QJs-QTs,JTs-J9s,T9s-T8s,98s-96s,87s-86s,76s
(those are all the hands that have the required 46% equity to call)

That's 24.3% of the deck. So you fold 75.7% of the time (we're facing a ~100% opener), and when you call, A4o still has 39.08% equity vs your calling range.

0.757 * (+2bb) + 0.243 * (0.3908*(+25bb) + 0.6092*(-25bb)) = +0.19bb

Which shows that shoving A4o @25bb is still +EV even vs a perfect calling range!
In practice, since people don't call even close to perfect, it's way more +EV.
15$turb: middle pair / draw / overs vs V cb Quote
06-09-2014 , 07:31 PM
Yes, as you saw in my previous post, I recon that under certain circumstances (in my 10% calling range example), a shove here is not -EV. what I believe is that a call, given villains tendencies is way more +EV.

By perfectly, I meant that we will be called only by better and let him fold all his bluffs and worst hands

On the most realistic of calling scenario I can come with (any pair, any ace: 20.36% of hands)
we have approx. 35.6% equity and shoving is overall a -32 chip EV move

Last edited by Polar Beard; 06-09-2014 at 07:55 PM.
15$turb: middle pair / draw / overs vs V cb Quote
06-09-2014 , 07:37 PM
kinda tough spot, is calling flop and turn if unimproved weak? how about shoving the flop?
15$turb: middle pair / draw / overs vs V cb Quote
06-09-2014 , 08:36 PM
against 100% opener that only calls ax,pp shoving any2 is insanely profitable preflop, with the ace you block some better hands which makes a4o a +1.41bb (compared to folding) shove which is more then you will make by flatting preflop

as played against a 100% cbetter its not the best flop in the world vs a 100% opener obv as the loosest portion of hands that he raises connect well but its probably still +ev in a vaccuum to checkraise any2 to like 300. If you want to stay balanced within the subgame of him betting 100% a4 is still a easy raise anyway. (similair reasoning as for why you should jam pre) Even if he calls it off with like any pair and best 3x (which will be almost 50% of his range if you have unpaired hand) its still +ev to checkJAM flop with hands like q6.

A simple strat of checkraising anything with overs and some backdoors as well as most pairs and then jamming turn whenever you pick up good equity should crush his 100% cbet strat easily. Against a guy that keeps barreling on the turn literally a 100% you can do even better by flatting a range like that and then checkjamming a ton on the turn.

Last edited by icoon; 06-09-2014 at 08:43 PM.
15$turb: middle pair / draw / overs vs V cb Quote

      
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