PokerStars - $14.69+$0.31|10/20 NL (2 max) - Holdem - 2 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4


Opponent seemed tight and most likely didnt hit the flop. I dont see many hands than have a reason to second barrel here besides Qx obviousy.
Is it a good spot to X/R any two cards?



Hero (BB): 23.5 BB
SB: 26.5 BB (VPIP: 37.50, PFR: 37.50, 3Bet Preflop: 25.00, Hands: 9)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, Hero posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has J 4

SB raises to 2 BB, Hero calls 1 BB

Flop: (4 BB, 2 players) 4 2 8
Hero checks, SB bets 2 BB, Hero calls 2 BB

Turn: (8 BB, 2 players) Q
Hero checks, SB bets 4 BB, Hero raises to 8 BB,

If you think only Qx barrels there why turn your showdown into bluff on turn?

If you think only Qx and air barrels there same question.

You seem to have one fundamental wrong - we don't raise our marginal showdown for information.

My advice - start asking yourself when you want to check raise - is it for value? Is it bluff? If both answers are not then it's most likely bad.

If you don't want to get this hand to showdown check raise the flop

Yep this spot is most likely +EV with atc.

An ok player will continue with an 8 close to 100% of the time and will go for 3 streets of value with his good 8 on not so scary rivers.
I don't know what the **** are you doing .

well check raising here represents a very strong hand like Qx, which I do not actually have. so it is obviously a bluff here to end the exchange and force my opponent to fold..
and of course, i dont feel like calling 3 streets with a pair of 4.


i dont think that it is even correct to talk about betting for info in a hyper turbo @23bb deep, for a turn move where the pot is 8bb and a player raises for another 8bb
tell me in which way, this checkraise can be perceived as getting info and not a value bet? do you believe that vilain thinks for a second "he has air and asks if i have a pair"? do you think that it is even conceivable that a player invest half of his remaining stack on the turn, "to get info"??


obviously i played tight and fair until that move, and avoid doin this vs a maniac...


anyway the question wasn't "should i check raise here with a pair of 4", but "should i check raise here with any two cards"; mostly because i dont see many hands barelling 2 streets on that board.

thank you watergun7 for your opinion, which I do share.

Thanks everyone for your contribution

So is it a value check raise or bluff one? Not saying it's -ev, just curious, what's your value range here and what's your bluff one for this line.

Also by betting for info I obviously didn't mean how it is perceived, I mean what you are trying to do.

And last question is how this i dont see many hands barelling 2 streets on that board makes check raise any two here good?

thanks for your feedback kobmish , it is a bluff here, there is no point imho value betting this pair of 4 on the turn.


my perceived range is Q4s+, KQo, Q6o+ (8,75% of atc and ~18% of a normal flatting range at this depth). lets call it the nut range for the exemple


Now the villain range is a little bit smaller for two reasons:

- lets say he has 8x, A3, A5 he would cbet the flop and check back the turn, because i might have flat with Qx a decent % of the time here

- lets say he has Q5,Q6,Q7,Q9+ he might want to save his queen high as he has some showdown value and has a decent chance to his some overpair with Q9+ on the turn and river. Cbetting this flop looks kinda weak because it is such a trashy flop, and any 2 broadways 4T+ 8T+ any king will flat call.

cbetting on this flop 4, 2, 8 isnt as efficient as cbetting a flop like A, K,6
a decent opponent holding Queen high will save his cbet fold equity for another flop

So I expect quite a lot of the vilain Qx hands to check back this flop and bet the turn.
Hence; the rest of the viliain range is air.. or Q8
Q8 is in theory the only hand allowing him to bet flop and turn indeed (or KK, AA).


Therefore, because of the two reasons above, and because the vilain opening range is wider than our calling range, his holdings is much less likely than the 18% mentionned above, to be in the nut range



Therefore we can safely assume that vilain will have air ~90% of the time here, and this gives us the odds to X/R with any two cards on the turn.

I strongly recommend you to not make decisions merely based on your "perceived range" at this level. As opponents get better and better it might be something you want to take into consideration. If it does happen to work it is much more likely that is was due to villain having a week enough range to find a fold than him seeing your line as strong.

Also, you are making too many assumptions and going into way too much detail for something that can be answered on a more logic based, fundamental level.

Why are you making this thread in the first place? It seems as if you are trying to seek the forum's approval, when instead you should be scrutinizing the advice that's being given to you.