Hi guys, I need help settling a staking issue. It's fairly simple and if a few regs could post in here I would greatly appreciate it.

If a horse is playing in a shootout event and when it gets down to heads up they decide to do a swap or a save and they don't let their backer know up front what their intentions are, does the corresponding % carry over to the backers? In this situation does it matter how much a horse sold of himself? Ie, a horse selling 80% of himself up front and swapping 10% you would think is more likely to carry the swap over to his investors where a horse selling 5% of himself is much less likely to carry the swap over to his investors.

Again thanks for your guys time, I hope everyone is doing well this summer

The horse should plan in advance with his backer what they would like to do when/if it comes down to Heads Up plan in a shoot out event. If they do not plan for this, then I believe the backer has a corresponding percentage of the swap.

Example: If a backer has 80% of the horse's action, and the horse decides to swap 5% of total profits with the other heads up player, then the horse should receive 80% of 5%, or 4% of the other heads up player's action throughout the remainder of the event.

My buddy was in a similar situation earlier this WSOP in the $1500 Shoot Out Event---he had 10% of his horse's action, and when the horse was heads up, he decided to swap 5% with the other heads up player. Therefore, my buddy had 10% of his horse's 5% swap, or 0.5% of the other heads up player's future prizes in the event.

Hope this helps.

-trip_kings12

Any swap done without the knowledge of the investor is completely on the person making the swap, the investor has zero action IMO. If it was discussed previously that the player could make swaps, then obviously the terms would depend on what was discussed. Makes no difference the % the player has.

Swap obviously does not carry over since the backer never agreed to buy some random's action.

This.

If a Horse makes side deals, it has no impact on the investor's deal. If you have a deal to get 10% of his cash in 3 tournies, you get the full 10% for those 3 tournies in full.

Of course a smart Horse will always let his investors know what he's doing to keep trust high.

agree w this.

If informed before they are done playing, i'd take the % (even if I don't confirm, these deals are standard & should be discussed & expected in shootouts), if he waits until after, I couldn't in good faith because of the chance I am getting free rolled.

After saying this, I did have this happen to me a few years ago in a backing scenario, & ended up eating 10% of my investment, I took it as a learning experience, but never again.

I agree with trip kings post above - money from chop/save should go back to backers. This makes trust with horse important, but that is true with the whole process.

In imawhale's example, if horse sold 80% to investors and swapped 10% HU and did not have to give swapped monies back to investors, then he'd be indifferent to HU outcome. This scenario is not good for investors.

Agree is should be discussed beforehand, but in almost all the staking package I have seen, this area is left silent.

It does. Horse could swap 20% and purposely lose. As mentioned previously, in this case 10% swap makes the horse indifferent to winning the HU if both players are equal. If villain is Phil Ivey, it's actually +EV to tank the HU.

This seems to make complete sense to me in the instance it was not discussed beforehand. The equity being dealt belongs to both parties if no conversation occurred.

+1

Many horses wouldn't/couldn't play an the event w/ out selling action to said event (or package of events)...therefore I believe any equity gained by the player being in the event should be proportionally split w/ investor(s)

If horse doesn't want this as part of the arrangement they should take 100% of themselves and buy in directly to a SO...but as we know, not selling pieces for many folks would be -ev, considering the shoot-out and therefore high variance nature of the tournament

Two quick points:

If the player in question is a horse, I.E. on a long-term staking deal with the backer, two things should be happening here:

All things, including this, should be discussed as they come up in a timely, full, honest, forthright, and truthful manner. For example, LL's (last longers) are very common in live SNGs. The backer and horse should decide whether or not this action is the backer's or horse's, as oftentimes these are the most lucrative (and vig free) parts of SNGs. Cutting the backer out of this is wrong, but having the backer assume the risk without his/her knowledge is also wrong.

In regards to swaps/saves, in my experience these have always gone on stake/against Make-up in a backing arrangment but come out of an individual's own piece in a BAP arrangement as a general rule.

I.E. individual A (with investors) does 10% save/swap with individual B, A wins table, wins event. A owes B 10% and investors their full share.

same situation (with a backer) 10% comes out of winnings and is never applied to the stake... and vice versa.

Final Note: If the horse or stakee is such a douche that he takes advantage of the ambiguities of this agreement (I.E., sells 80% of himself, swaps his 20% as a save and purposefully loses his shootout table HU) he should rot in hell.

TLDR Cliffs:

If selling pieces, as a general rule, the % comes out of individual's own piece (as if the % swapped is a new investor.)

If under a long-term stake, any swaps/saves absolutely go on stake.

If you angle shoot these terms, a warm place in hell awaits you.

My $.02

This. I have been in this situation before and posted it here asking the same question and the general response was that the % goes out of the horses share, if they didn't agree before hand on this aspect. If it was already mentioned in terms when doing the deal, then investor will get action from any swap, otherwise not.