First post here, hopefully many more to come once I get to know you guys. The setting is a 4handed 30/60 Limit game, highest one can find in a Toronto casino excpt for 50/100 once a week. Most of us have played in higher limits when available, including one guy who makes his living off of 100/200 games in LA and was just back in town visiting.

So to set the scene, UTG is a strong online and live limit player probably better than me, at the very least break even, we can sense eachother when making moves but he has the best of me in this session. Button is probably the strongest player at the table, 30/60 is low stakes for him but he has been playing a strong game, not just messing around. I'm in SB and the BB is a solid ring game player but too passive for SH. I should also mention I am the only one down at the table rightnow, suffered a few beats so I could be seen as tilting.

UTG folds, Button raises, I 3bet from SB with A A , BB cold calls, button calls.

Flop is 7 7 5 . I check, BB checks Button bets, I raise, BB cold calls, Button calls.

I put the BB on a draw, he was passive but would have put in a bet or raise if he had a 7. The button I had no read on all night.

The turn is a blank deuce, i think the 2 -- What do I do here?

My friend who we always analyze hands together suggested that I check-call the turn, possbly throw in a check-raise on a brick river.


I bet the turn, BB calls, Button raises - I call, BB Calls. River is a 9 (dont remember suit but non-spade), I check BB checks, button bets, I call BB folds A T -- Button shows Q7off


My question is, disregarding the result, is there anywhere I could have folded the hand, given that it is a 4handed game, or could I have saved any bets by checking the turn?



Thanks for any advice, and many more hand analyses to come in the future.

Welcome to the forums.

First off, what u and ur friend discussed is silly. CR a brick river!?? Why you trying to be so tricky? You played the hand fine, just got cold-decked. You're not folding that hand 4-handed on any street. I think you need to lead the flop, though. Don't altogether mind the CR, though, as long as you lead out on the turn, which you did.

Sounds like you need to practice some game selection too - from your descriptions, sounds like you were the "fish" at the table.

Given the way it was played is 3 betting the turn nuts?

Hero is oop and handreading suggests he's probably behind villain's range. Seems like a straightforward calldown.

Flop c/r is bad cuz it polarizes your range too far towards {big pairs/monster draws} too fast imo. It should take them on average 2 BB to figure that out otherwise (bet all streets, 3b flop raise, 3b turn, etc.).

fold preflop. and by preflop i mean before you sit in this game.

i would lead the flop, hoping that bb raises his mid pair so i can 3bet.

i also wouldnt sit in this game.

game selection.

raising q7o in on the button in a raked game is a leak. exploit him...

By Toronto casino, do you mean Blue Heron?

so debatable and wrong IMO

Thx for the good advice guys, and you're right I shouldnt be playing, but given that a game with that caliber of players at relaively low stakes comes around so seldom, I was willing to accept a slight -EV situation so that I could sit in a game where I could learn and improve my own game for the future.

And yeah, it was at Blue Heron for who asked... and the game is session fee, not rake.

Thx for the advice guys, I figured that given its 4 handed I couldnt realy let it go at any point, the thing with check-calling or even check-raising the turn like my friend and I were discussing is because the Button would be forced to bet pretty much any hand when checked to given the draw filled nature of the board, and an extra bet might be extracted.

based on the description of the game and the way you played the hand, i would say it's a lot more than slight -EV and you'd be much better off spending that money on coaching or something if the goal is to improve your game.

of course you can't let it go, but it has nothing to do with the fact that the game is 4-handed. that's just a flawed way of thinking.


why can't the button be on a draw? giving free cards on this board is pretty disastrous.

why would you ever check this flop? who is the LA player?

By "given that it 4 handed" I mean that the players are playing it accordingly and could be making the same play with a range of hands. (not that "the likelyhood of losing aces 4handed is too unlkely") Folding hands when the odds don't warrant a call has never been a problem for me in live play, short handed or not.

The game selection isn't really my primary concern here, more so I just want to optimize the way I played the hand.


PokerBob, I check-raised the flop to disguise my hand a bit and to figure out where the BB was at in the hand. Also if the button was on any pair I would quite possibly get in 4 bets on the flop as he was playing very aggresively.

His name is Jerry, really nice guy, talks a lot, big guy. Said he's played the 1/2 game at Commerce quite often in the past.

See your play did the exact opposite of this. After you 3 bet preflop you have whatever range. Most people would basically dark bet the flop so that bet doesn't narrow your range or give your hand away at all. By CRing you are suggesting you have a pair of some sort and are trying to push BB out of the pot. The only thing it disguises is that you would probably be seen as having a smaller pair than you do. But it hardly matters on a 775 board because you are often ahead with any pair and if behind, it doesn't matter how big your pair is if he has 3 sevens.

Jerry = a bald guy who usually wears headphones and does a lot of sports betting? I could be way off...

-DeathDonkey

In this spot I don't think it is necessary for you to get cute. You 3bet preflop. They fully expect you to bet that flop, and if they are at all good they are gonna check behind with no-pair hands.

As far as finding out where BB is in the hand, I really don't think it matters. You have two aces. Just bet it.

how are they playing accordingly? how does their perception of your button opens change given that its 4 handed? are they playing tighter or looser or more aggressive or more passive than they would in a full game? do they assume that you're opening tighter or looser than you would in a full game? are they adjusting properly (by observing how you're adjusting) or do they go by the "conventional wisdom" (which is entirely wrong) that you should play looser in a 4-handed game than in a full game?

wow the game I missed out on, Lol!

Seb85, you need to read Ed Miller's book, twice. Your foundation is way off and you're doing random moves by my calculations.

Checking the flop is fishy as hell, so is checking the turn considering your flop decision

My first thought is find a softer game!!

Just a useles fyi, but headphones aren't allowed in ontario casnios (lame). "Buying the button" isnt allowed, Alcohol/food is expensive and comps suck.

I miss commerce...

you guys really like to beat a dead horse. the poster said he realized that this was not a great spot and he wanted to play it anyways. his prerogative. you guys disagree and he agrees as well...

as to the hand, there is no way to get away or lose less. the flop check is bad though, def bet/3bet and wherever the flop action ends you need to then lead the turn. if you get raised at that point then it is time to call down. unless the bb comes alive at some point there is no fold to be found.

3bet turn check call river if you think B raises wide range
7 is there on river i think check call is best
he isnt betting anything except a 7 or maybe 1010 or sumtin

most has been covered but given what you stated:

- bet flop. if raised 3bet. flops like this are great because aggressive players will put in action w/ many pairs and flush draws. you are only scared of a 7 and the ranges you are likely against are wide enough that you want to get a lot of money in on the flop. if a K/Q/J hits on the turn, you'll likely lose some action you would have gotten on the flop from 88-TT. similarly, if a spade hits you may lose some action and is dangerous for you as you don't ahve a spade. further, AQ/AK in the button's hand may raise the flop since a) he may (possibly correctly) think he is ahead, b) may raise since you seem to suggest that you take his game seriously and might not 3bet a hand like 88/99 in that spot, and c) he may raise for a free card and his "6 outs" (esp. if he has a spade). that may not be likely though overall since he probably caps AK pf, but might not AQ. also, BB called 2 cold there so i'd put a pair in his range and you will very likely get him to raise out the button if you bet thus allowing you to 3bet him (though obv you want button in)

- bet turn. if raised, call down. no explanation needed here.

- bet river, if raised, call down. again no explanation needed.

Barron

how often does that 30/60 run? What about 50/100?

50/100 normally runs once a week at brantford casino.. Not sure about blue heron.

It's a pretty big event tho, the games are often action packed and run to the whee hours of the monring..