How are there two sides to this argument. Obvious refund spot imo.

The fact that he originally wanted to book 1 is of literally 0 importance here.

If someone is sneaky enough to book 5 sessions for 550 with the intention of only taking one and then seeking a refund 4 months later then good for them, that's a pretty sick angle. I wouldn't give anyone other than the scummiest people credit for coming up with that plan. If your student is truly that type of person (which I doubt) then good for him, the universe is going to sort itself later and get him eventually.

As someone that coaches I think it's pretty reasonable to assume that you should be able to get more than one session in 4 months. I think as a coach it's your responsibility to make sure you have enough free time (whether it means keeping less students to ensure they can all have their sessions fullfilled in a timely fashion r actively booking them in advance to commit to a time so that you don't start sessions that you don't feel you can quit).

While I agree that most poker coaches should be committed to grinding more than coaching (otherwise they probably aren't particularly good) it's still not reasonable to justify not fulfilling sessions in a timely manner because you're grinding.

For example. If I coached a student on Tuesday and on friday he pms me looking for a session I think it's pretty reasonable for me to say that I'm grinding and he's going to have to book another date.

Conversely, If I have a student that hasn't had a session in 3 weeks I would tend to quit my session unless I had really good games up to fill the session (or I'd get him in right after my session and potentially cut it short).

Just some food for thought for the future: I think you may want to reconsider selling in packages and getting people to pay up front especially people transferring via stars. If you're selling 5 sessions for 550 (with a regularly hourly of 125 lets say) then why not just get him to transfer 125 125 125 125 50 prior to each session that way if he wants to back out he can back out.

My feelings are this helps in multiple ways:

First of all, the odds of you as a coach just packing up shop and leaving the student before the completes his session is ~negligible so he has little risk in that regard.

Second, if he wants to leave at any point he can leave. He simply stops booking sessions and that's all she wrote. Since he paid your regular hourly up until the last session even if he leaves early no one owes anyone anything.

I only get students to pay for packages all at once if they are using paypal since the fees are so ridiculous and of the form: Fee= Flat rate + % of transfer, so if they make 5 transfers instead of 1 it costs everyone more money.

Lastly, I get that we as coaches would like to ensure that our students hang around for a little while and really commit to the coaching because a) it allows us to cover more and actual interesting things ( I personally enjoy my 3rd session with a student much more than the 1st because I usually have to spend the 1st one covering more basic things than the 3rd one) and b) we make more money because we guarantee more sessions.

I just don't think that we should be locking people in to a bunch of sessions for what is an absurd amount of money in the "real world".

Just my two cents.

Hopefully this gets resolved quickly and everyone is happy.

Pretty obv refundspot

+1, it's clear 4-hours-refund. I got no idea what's the argument on hesitating here man.

Has this been resolved yet?

chillskill & I have reached an agreement. He has agreed to pay me back by the end of the month. Would like to thank everyone who helped bring this to attention and as well to chillskill for resolving this quickly after it came to light.

Jesse

I was just away for the weekend, and I wanted to see what people had to say.

Not liking your judge-like attitude too much tho ponty tbh. thanks for giving your opinion but you have no direct interest in the matter

thanks everyone, I already spoke to jesse and issue resolved ^^

Sorry you don't like my attitude. I thought I had been pretty cordial throughout the whole thing and explicitly expressed the fact that I thought you were a "smart and nice guy" (quoting my previous post).

I have not judged you one way or another, I just gave my opinion on the matter like many others in the thread who have no "direct interest in the matter". If you advertise/push your coaching program hard in a public thread like this, then you unfortunately have to expect some difficult questions when issues like these arise and you will of course be judged on your actions, that is unavoidable. Obviously your action here appears to be the correct one so I have no issues with you at all but don't be so quick to bark at people who question coaches, especially legitimate issues like this. If you push your coaching hard in your goal thread then you of course have to be held to a higher account/standard than other people who do not.

lmfao get a grip.

Can I book 10hrs in advance??

couldnt agree more.

good to see a resolution.

has there been a resolution? im still waiting for mine.

Been holding back from a long time wanting to post this. Chillskill has owed me 2,000 dollars for over 2 months now and i have yet to receive a dime. Below are the facts of how this occur.


I was playing some deep shorthanded cash at maryland live vs some solid gto type players who wasnt crushing me but i wanted an edge so i seek coaching. I though chill would be the man and I book 20 lesson to make sure we dive deep into theory.
game2eazy- Can I do 2k for 20?
[4/6/2014 9:16:49 PM] Chillskill: mmmm
[4/6/2014 9:16:56 PM] Chillskill: never sold a package that long tbh
[4/6/2014 9:17:00 PM] game2eazy: Prob eill be buying motr
[4/6/2014 9:17:12 PM] Chillskill: 2k for 20 seems fine I guess
[4/6/2014 9:17:19 PM] Chillskill: given that its 20 secure lessons
[4/6/2014 9:17:21 PM] Chillskill: we could do that

Before we could schedule a coaching I have became very ill and had to fly back home to Florida. I went treatment for over a month of still not finding what is wrong with me. during the time i have ask for a refund as i know longer need the coaching since im not playing vs this type players.

So this convo has occured when i ask for the funds back via pm and skype.

Hey bro sorry been very sick lately still . Trying to figure out what I am allergic to.
[4/13/2014 1:17:53 PM] game2eazy: I do want lesson but don't know when I be able to put in an online session just wante to keep you inform and thank you for patients
[4/14/2014 9:32:49 PM] Chillskill: its fine man np
[4/14/2014 10:52:16 PM] Chillskill: hey man I saw your 2+2 message
[4/14/2014 10:52:36 PM] Chillskill: there is a problem atm I have invested the money and Im really at close to 0$ life money atm
[4/14/2014 10:52:43 PM] Chillskill: I cant really return it tbh
[4/14/2014 10:53:28 PM] Chillskill: I really never thought you would need it back
[4/14/2014 10:53:42 PM] Chillskill: can we do the coachings ? Im 100% sure it will be a great investment for you
[4/15/2014 5:11:44 AM] game2eazy: ? I am really confused on how you don't have 2k . I do need the coaching and want it but currently I am allergic to something and been on going specialist to find out what . I won't have time to grind or study until all this is settle . Also I need the cash so please Xfer 2k to game2eazy
[4/16/2014 9:18:35 AM] game2eazy: Hey I have not heard back from you, please let me know the resolution ASAP
[4/16/2014 3:26:26 PM] game2eazy: Hey chill please let me know the situation of this before I pursue my next move
[4/16/2014 8:54:15 PM] Chillskill: hey man I was away for the day
[4/16/2014 8:54:23 PM] Chillskill: I dont know what you mean with pursue my next move
[4/16/2014 8:54:27 PM] Chillskill: the situation is simple
[4/16/2014 8:54:42 PM] Chillskill: you payed me for coaching and that money transfered into my domain
[4/16/2014 8:54:56 PM] Chillskill: I used it and now you dont want to take the coachings without even doing one class
[4/16/2014 8:55:01 PM] Chillskill: even more, missing the first class
[4/16/2014 8:55:26 PM] Chillskill: and even If I did refunds for no reason which I have done in the past
[4/16/2014 8:55:31 PM] Chillskill: I dont have the money atm to do it
[4/16/2014 8:58:32 PM] game2eazy: I have became ill and had to cancel when you tell me you can't refund I lose confidence in your ability . I don't care how you need to return it but I will not keep quiet if I dot have a resolution within a few days
[4/16/2014 8:59:48 PM] Chillskill: ?
[4/16/2014 8:59:59 PM] Chillskill: why you lose confidence in my ability
[4/16/2014 9:00:05 PM] Chillskill: what does one thing have to do with another
[4/16/2014 9:00:19 PM] Chillskill: I would gladly repay you now if I could man believe me, I hate this money problems
[4/16/2014 9:00:29 PM] Chillskill: but I cant atm because I dont have money to do it
[4/16/2014 9:07:56 PM] game2eazy: As long as your expecting to pay me within a week I will not raise one fuss . I lost ability in your bankroll management . I need to get to next lvl I'm beating 10/25 live and the next person I chose to help my game need complete confidence
[4/16/2014 9:16:13 PM] Chillskill: lol thats a really bad excuse
[4/16/2014 9:16:29 PM] Chillskill: and its fine I dont really would want to do the coaching anyways
[4/16/2014 9:16:35 PM] Chillskill: after how you have behaved
[4/16/2014 9:16:45 PM] Chillskill: and I will try to pay you as soon as possible
[4/16/2014 9:17:08 PM] Chillskill: next week seems impossible because I leave for family vacations from the 20th to the 27th
[4/16/2014 9:17:17 PM] Chillskill: and its not a matter of my bankroll managment
[4/16/2014 9:17:22 PM] Chillskill: I play staked
[4/16/2014 9:17:27 PM] Chillskill: and all my money I invest it
[4/16/2014 9:18:20 PM] Chillskill: I will try my best to return it as soon as possible
[4/16/2014 9:18:27 PM] Chillskill: hopefully the first days of may
[4/16/2014 9:20:09 PM] Chillskill: I have never wanted to keep your money or nothing like that, I just dont have it atm, and tbh I dont even think I should be refunding it, but I will because I hate doing coaching with bad vibes
[4/16/2014 9:20:17 PM] game2eazy: Sorry this has made us both look really unprofessional . I just wanted confirmation you will lay back I understand
[4/16/2014 9:20:18 PM] Chillskill: but all the way you have behaved and acted is really ****ty imo
[4/16/2014 9:20:28 PM] game2eazy: I will not say a word until may 10
[4/16/2014 9:20:48 PM] Chillskill: so if you want to make a fuss or whatever its fine with me because I think I have acted as expected always
[4/16/2014 9:20:51 PM] Chillskill: ok
[4/16/2014 9:21:17 PM] game2eazy: I got a message saying you didn't have my cash as did not speak to you got two days just got worried
[4/16/2014 9:24:13 PM] game2eazy: After talking to you no I owe you an apology
[4/16/2014 9:24:25 PM] game2eazy: Enjoy your vacation and talk to your the start of May
[4/16/2014 9:24:39 PM] game2eazy: We haw agree to this resolution
[4/16/2014 9:24:40 PM] game2eazy: ?
[4/16/2014 9:25:54 PM] Chillskill: yes
[4/16/2014 9:25:56 PM] Chillskill: its fine

So i waited and waited and have waited.
[5/15/2014 8:10:57 AM] game2eazy: Hello chill have still not heard a response
[5/15/2014 4:33:37 PM] game2eazy: Last time reaching out to you , if payment has not been made by Sunday I will blast this information off to multiple public sites . You has had plenty time to repay me what is mine now this is consider theft and I will pursue the actions
[5/17/2014 7:23:12 PM] Chillskill: hey man. Ive read your messages, ive tried my best but Ive been on a downswing this last 2 weeks, havent been able to make any money yet. Im 100% concious that I owe you the money, and Im doing my best to try to repay you, be assured that there is no way that Im not going to pay it back, please be patient, Im really sorry
[5/18/2014 4:09:12 AM] game2eazy: As long as you keep being upfront with me where good
[5/18/2014 4:09:24 AM] game2eazy: I just need to hear from you keep me in the loop
[5/18/2014 4:09:41 AM] game2eazy: I wish the best for you and don't want to down any more time on this than needed to be
[5/26/2014 1:16:03 PM] game2eazy: Hey bro what up can you shoot me so
[5/26/2014 1:16:13 PM] game2eazy: mething
[5/29/2014 3:32:32 AM] game2eazy: Hey chill please let me know something
[5/29/2014 7:48:16 PM] game2eazy: Still no response I ask you to keep me updated
[5/30/2014 1:50:00 PM] Chillskill: yeah man. I was with flu in bed since tuesday
[5/30/2014 1:50:06 PM] Chillskill: now back on my feet
[5/30/2014 1:50:11 PM] Chillskill: grinding
[5/30/2014 1:50:17 PM] Chillskill: will let you know when I can send you
[6/5/2014 5:49:42 AM] game2eazy: Hey see someone blasted you on your thread I do not want to join in
[6/5/2014 8:06:01 PM] Chillskill: yeah, that problem is fixed ... he wants a refund because he started coaching with a guy who is staking him. and I dont do refunds. in your case I took a special one time approach which Im heavily regretting haha because I have been able to run into money to pay you yet
[6/5/2014 8:06:03 PM] Chillskill: but I will
[6/5/2014 8:06:06 PM] Chillskill: when I do
[6/11/2014 3:18:20 AM] game2eazy: So I will be getting paid before wooly correct
[6/11/2014 3:18:46 AM] game2eazy: In in desperate need of cash
[6/11/2014 3:19:05 AM] Chillskill: yes ofc

Said i would be paid before the end of month and I have yet spoke to him. OP give me my damn money its been long enough.

I see this differently to the other case which is more clear, I think you are pretty lucky that OP is willing to oblige in refunding you. I also definitely think that you should not be refunded first but whatever

I don't think he's lucky at all. There is no way that op keeping the $2k would have been a fair resolution and almost no way after those conversations that a good student/coach relationship could ever develop. Also keeping the money would ruin any credibility for future earnings as a coach, there's basically a graveyard of coaches who took that precise route and got so hammered in the coaching threads that their business/threads got ruined.

I was pretty indifferent before but waiting over 2 months is ridiculous. Chill, it may be time to consider removing your money from these investments. I can't understand how you sell coaching as a 500 zoom grinder but don't even have $2k to your name, doesn't really add up. Unless you live month to month on less than $2k? don't have any money accessible from a bank? and have all your money tied up in long term investments that can't be accessed easily? Otherwise i see no reason why you can not have repaid either player by now.

OP said in some of these PMs that he is staked... is he in make up? Only explanation I can think of and considering his results I dont consider it likely.

I dont mean lucky as in its not the right thing to do, just saying lots of coaches would have just forced the lessons even with a bad /student coaching relationship... especially when said coach is supposedly broke.

Yeah I understand what you're saying. However, the coaches that force those sessions get a bad reputation very quickly. I can think of at least 3 or 4 coaches who used to advertise on 2+2 that did similar things and the negatives to their business vastly out weighed the positives.

Am sure he will sort it though. I agree with below that it's not necessarily shady.

I haven't read through the thread, but based on the last post i'm not sure you can be super upset. How long exactly was he supposed to hold the money before it was his to spend? Is he allowed to spend $100 every time he has a session with you?

Not really picking sides, but I don't think he's really done anything shady tbh. It's annoying he is cash broke, but im sure when he sold you something that he didnt expect to have to give the money back.

Since he intended on honoring the initial arrangement wherein he keeps the money and provides service, it's not really scummy of him to not have the money to pay you back. His initial agreement never involved needing to have any available money of his own.

That being said, obv chill should pay him back as soon as he can, which he appears to be making an effort towards (as much as I can assume)

lol at being cash broke.. pay the guy a refund ffs, he is ill in addition to that. with those kind of behaviours do u really think ppl are going to pick u as a coach?

ps: i dont know game2easy

zero effort has been made for paying back over 2 months. I had cancel the agreement within a week and never schedule one class. At the of the occurrence if chill would of charge me a fee for canceling i would of not have minded. But not over 2 months and he still grinding and coaching i have not received a penny i believe im intital to my full refund.

u didn't even schedule one class lol so u didnt mess with his schedule.. if u are cash broke (which i really doubt, and since u play 500 zoom u shouldn't be broke no matter if u are staked or not) at least work a plan for pay this guy, pay in 1k per month or w/e

At this point it looks safe to just chalk this up to him being a complete scammer as far as coaching goes.

As clear cut as the first refund case was imo, this second one is even more ridiculous.

Clearly the dude is not working some sort of angle. Also, he claims to have cancelled the agreement within the first week. I don't know about you, but surely it's pretty hard to organize a long term investment from pokerstars funds within a week.

I know personally for me as a canadian I need to cash out a cheque, which takes a day or two to clear stars, which then needs to get mailed to me by fedex which is another 1-2 days. Then I need to drag my lazy ass to the bank which is a whole other problem (I can believe someone motivated could do it day of), but then the bank ends up getting a little overprotective of a poker cheque and puts it on a 5 business day hold. At that point, I need to call my stock broker and send the money to my trading account, and then make the stock purchase. You're looking at like a 2 week time period here.

Now, I can understand that with skrill etc this process can be sped up, but surely it takes a few days for the wire from skrill to your bank to occur and the most long term investments (at least that are difficult to liquidate) are not something you can access that quickly (like buying real estate for example).


Also, I don't know where you live but it seems rather sketchy to me that someone that plays msnl doesn't live a high enough quality of life that they'd be able to access 2k at a moment's notice (or at least in the timeframe of say a week or something which I'm sure the person receiving the refund would be totally understanding of.)

Like, who takes every cent to their name and just invests it longterm so they can make 5%? That seems really dumb to me especially if you're staked and (according to this thread anyway) you can't be sure you're going to make any money for 2 months. Do you just live off of visas that charge 30%? While having a pile of money in longterm investments making 5%? The math doesn't work and I have a hard time believing that anyone is that stupid. Especially someone smart enough to play mid stakes online. At this point I just call bull****.

I'm really glad threads like these exist so people like me who mostly just read on 2p2, get to know which coaches/people to steer clear of.

+1 to North Squad's post.

I am just glad threads exist like these so people can see the consumer-seller relationship and how it should never be done.

Why not pay when you receive services? Even hookers do this better, right? I have never gone to a store, bought a refrigerator and then lost the ability to eat and take back said refrigerator and gotten my money fully refunded. Typically, what happens, is there is a store credit or the smart consumer does not buy a fridge and return unless it is faulty or does not fit in their house or something. Now, had I maybe purchased the refrigerator for a smaller price to try it out for thirty days and return it, that would be one thing, but people don't do that with refrigerators. However, with poker, why not just pay $200-$300 at the time of the first lesson, try it out, and then lock up a few more lessons if all goes well?

I might not be at the top of the bottom 1% on this site as far as poker abilities but with business decisions I don't think I am in the bottom half and this is just bad business here...on both ends. If you run a business such as offering coaching, there should be some sort of contract that is signed. I used to get lessons from Chris Wallace and I have never heard of him (or other coaches I know, some personally) ever having issues besides students not showing up for lessons or minor scheduling mishaps. This is not rocket science...

smh

and no knock on you game2eazy, sucks you got sick, I was just generalizing...hope you feel better obviously even though I don't know you...my post was completely even to both sides because I feel some people might read this and miss that the normal functionality of the deal (i.e. over some form of messaging system, long term deals without knowing the person really, etc) is the way we should do business with coaching/staking and it is not. A thread should really be made on the correct process of transfers and coach responsibilities with the money before/after completion of services.

Why is there not a middle man who handles the money who would be trusted, like someone who could be given authority on 2+2 with certain credentials that would make a very small fee to handle the business end of these transactions? Just a suggestion if any mod see's this and wants to make a better thread than just the standard market place dealings so people can know that both directions are fair and justified. There are a lot of great poker players on here, obviously, and great students, but as far as proper business ethics and dealings, the poker world, is far behind...and we should be representing the game and being much better on a consumer and coach/seller end.