The truth is, a lot of players talk a big game in hypothetical situations but very very few players have it in them to ship $700 when facing the situation in real life.

This is not a slam at you or anyone else in the thread, just an observation I've noticed from my time at the tables.

Too often, players do not make the play they know in their heart they should make because they level themselves about what "other players" left to act might do.

The truth is, sure, a thinking player might pick up on the fact that I "might" be isolating light....

But I could also be isolating with JJ+

and that doubt combined with the $700 3-bet will be more than enough to prevent him from overshipping with 77 - JJ, AQ.

Then there is the very real mathematical reality that there are 1326 combos of hands and the majority of those hands suck and most of the time the remaining 4 players left to act will not be dealt a strong enough hand to even merit any thought of calling my $700 bet.

So when you add all of the above together, I just don't worry about it and I go ahead and isolate against the maniac.

My last comment on this is that crushing LLSNL poker will often involve taking very obvious and very exploitable lines against our villains. And as thinking players I think that is very disconcerting to us because we feel that when we take these lines our hands are sooo face up and obvious that surely someone has to see what we are doing and adjust to us right?

Wrong. Well.... wrong 95% of the time.

Sure, occasionally there will be a thinking player on our left who can adjust to us, but even still he still has to have a hand that can do it and mathematically speaking in spots like these, 90%+ of the time he isn't going to have a hand strong enough to do it. And even if he does, he still might not due to uncertainty on his part (i.e. its much harder to ship that $700 with 99 in real life than it is in a hypothetical chatroom discussion...)

The reason I'm harping on this is because imo I feel this is one of those things that prevents many players from taking their game to that next level.

For the sake of argument, lets say I iso here with A6s for $700 and the BB wakes up with KK and goes all-in for $700, does that make me wrong in my play?

No.

The play I made was still +EV longterm and that is what winning poker is all about. Occasionally we will take the +EV line and run up against a monster. Meh, it happens, doesn't mean we were wrong just because we got unlucky and the BB woke up with a monster...

It really wasn't my intent to sound hostile, it just comes off that way because its hard to inject voice inflection in text. Maybe I should have put in a couple of emoticons

but seriously, I was just discussing/debating a point not attacking you, sorry if it comes off harsh, not my intent.

The way the vast majority of players will adjust to the maniac will be in a PASSIVE way. They will wait for hands strong enough to call that $100 opening raise and then hope the flop hits them or that their pair post flop is good and THEN they will stack off.

However, very few players ACTIVELY adjust against maniacs (i.e. isolating with weaker hands, they will still isolate but only with top 3% hands) and even FEWER players will adjust by overcalling my $700 bet -- that is a Level 3 play and 95% of the players at LLSNL are Level 1 and Level 2 players.

so again, sure it's something to consider but since its going to happen less than 5% of the time, I will rather craft my strategy for the 95% rather than the 5%...

Am I the only person who has ever played a ****ing mtt before?

Yes

EV of maniac raise/calling top 75% and everyone else folding:

(.8319)*[(+$700*.57614) + (-$700*.42386)] = +$88.68

EV of getting overcalled by 99+, AQo+ and maniac calling:

(.1681)*[(+$1400*.23633) + (-$700*.76367)] = -$34.24

Total EV = (+$88.68) + (-$34.24) = +$54.44

Conclusion? Since the move is around +9bbs to +11bbs and it helps our image to get paid off later we should be shoving. If not we are underrolled for these stakes.

**Note that these figures don't take into account multiple overcalls which will happen ~1% and will affect these figures around -$5 to -$6 at most.**

DGI, did you see they are running free shuttle buses from Bay 101 to Thunder Valley for the WPT? Check the live updates on the Shooting Star on WPT.com and surf around.

Uhhggggg, hate grinding all day and going sideways/breakeven on great tables where I should have made $2k+ but hey, that's poker.

I started off the day with a great table selection but I made a HUGE mistake early...

I forgot to breathe.

Daniel Negreanu wrote a great article a few years ago about a concept that he calls breathing-- taking a few orbits to sit back and watch/observe the table before you open up and adjust. I forgot to do that and just sat down and played against generic villains.

So, on my 3rd hand in the CO I get dealt 22. MP raises to $25, 2 callers, and I call deciding to set mine obviously. eff stacks $450, I cover

Flop(100) Q 3 3
MP bets $55, other villains fold, and I call...

So here is the deal, when he leads out for about 1/2 pot I know he's not overly thrilled about his hand so I'm thinking he has JJ/TT or even a whiffed AK and he just hates the Q, so I decide to rep a decent Queen. Yeah, I know, my setmining plan just flew out the window and my "I'm super awesome" autopilot has fully engaged

Turn(210) 5
V chks, I bet $150, he makes a reluctant call

River(510) 8
V chks, I put him all in for about $275, he shakes his head, sighs, grimaces a little bit and calls.

V shows QT
I muck

yuckity yuck yuck yuck. And as luck would have it, I see villain station off 3 hands later where he called down with middle two pair on a 5 diamond board for 1/2 pot sized bets on each street and then a few hands later he played for stacks calling down with TPWK

so yeah, I just tried to bluff a super station FML
talk about rookie mistakes, smh... I was so disgusted with myself...

So, I reload and basically just start the session fresh.

I raise from LP with my standard range but a young TAG sitting at around $150 shoves all-in. First time I figure he had a good hand. 2nd time he does it to me I'm starting to wonder if he is targetting me. 3rd time I'm pretty convinced he is targeting me so I tighten up my LP, HJ, CO, and BTN raising range to AJ+, TT+.

So he shoved me 3 times within 2 orbits (I'm fairly active in LP, HJ, CO, and BTN and often raise at least once per orbit from one of those positions).

On the 4th time I had AJ and raise $20, he shoves for $250, I call, he immediately says "Nice call you got it..." I ask him if he has an Ace or a pair and he says no.

Board runs out A 7 6 3 8 rainbow and he insta mucks...

Few orbits pass and we get into a very interesting pot that is worth discussing.

I'm in MP with AA and raise $25, He calls from LP, SB and BB call, 4 way action.

Flop(100) 4 4 9
chks to me, I bet 50, he calls, SB folds, BB calls

Whenever you are in these spots and have an X X Y board and one of the blinds check calls then warning bells should go off in your head since they usually will have that X trips

Turn(250) T
BB chks, I chk, LP bets $65, BB calls, I call

River(445) 7
BB chks, I chk, LP goes all-in for $250, BB folds (thank god), I call.

LP shows JJ
I win with AA

I was fully prepared to fold if BB called here since that is going to be some random 4 a large percentage of the time.

After the above hand I ended up being card dead for a good 2 hours, which is rare for me because since my range is so freaking wide it takes an act of some serious runbad for me to be card dead, but I pretty much didn't get any playable hands for a good long stretch and whatever playable hands I got I ended up having to fold. So, I walk around and see another juicy table so decide to do a table change...

I pick up 98 in LP and raise to $30, decent TAG calls me from HJ, MP limp calls as well, 3-way action.

Flop(90) 8 7 6
MP chks, I bet 75, HJ calls, MP folds heads up

Turn(290) 4
I chk, HJ chks

River(290) 8
I bet 150, HJ calls

I show 98, V insta mucks

My last notable hand was raising with KTo in LP and blowing off a recreational scared money fish off his KJ on a K Q 7 3 board...

Other than that, the remaining session consisted of me running sideways. I had about 8 great opportunities to felt some stack off monkeys when I called their preflop raises with SCs and S1Gs and flopped OESD and picked up backdoor flush draws and despite getting GREAT direct odds with their weak ass bets on flop/turn I was unable to hit... THose were hands where I realized I had no fold equity so optimal +EV line was to just draw especially since I was getting ridiculously fantastic odds... but sometimes you just don't hit

So, I ended up just grinding grinding grinding and once I got tired I decided to just call it a night. Ended up down $100 overall. Hopefully will make it up and get on a sick heater tomorrow.

thanks for the info

Loving the analysis of the hands you play. How long have you been playing DGI?

DGI, thanks for the well thought out answer. As you can see from my opinion on the other 2 hands(Especially the A3 hand), I in no way feel that waiting to cooler people is the way to crush high stakes. I understand and agree with a lot of what you do. I also feel that your post flop skills allow you to do it comfortably at 2-5 and esp. at 2-5 deep and be very profitable at it.

However, at 10-25 about 100-150 BB deep against thinking opponents, as you admit, you are getting into trouble occasionally and this is precisely where. Defending in BB, OOP with a weak sauce hand! This should be dumped and fast. It is in no way shape or form profitable. Maybe, just maybe it increases your EV a bit on some other hands where you get paid off, but in and of itself this hand is way -EV. It's a trouble hand and I think you are overvaluing your skill advantage OOP when you try to defend with it. You are calling with junk and trying to hit gin(you do tend to do that sometimes from your HH's. Q9s to a 3 bet comes to mind.) IP with your skill, have a ball and torture them with hands like this, but OOP it's trash and should hit the muck without a second thought.

You say this opponent will barrel and you can check call for value. But he doesn't! Why? It won't take long for a good opponent to read you and defend by one and done cbetting when he misses and barreling when he has you crushed. Look at what this opponent did with KK on that board vs you despite your read. He cbet flop with an overpair, checked behind a safe turn(because as you say he thought you might have set(or 2pair) - Think about that. He pot controls KK!), and reraised big on river when he had a monster. He actually played this pretty well. It seems he is adjusting already.

Only 3 things matter in NL. Position, card advantage and skill advantage. You better have at least 2 when you play a hand. Remember. Position, position, position! It will magnify your skill advantage when you have it and trivialize it when you don't. I see by your rethinking the Q9s call of the 3 bet hand that you are thoughtful and are reconsidering some of your negative EV spots. Reconsider some of the LAG stuff you are doing OOP. You will realize a lot of it is -EV. It will definitely help your game.

BTW love the shove vs maniac w A6s. Virtually No one at that level adjusts well enough to call there in game vs your play. Only get called by QQ+ and AK and occ JJ really.

I meant that none of the players between you and maniac will adjust well enough to your iso $700 bet to call with less than QQ+ and AK. Maniac obv calls with a range way behind A6s. You almost always will play that HU as solid favorite.

My last session can be summed up in one word, Yuck.

I started the session off at normal 2/5nl, grinded about 6 hours and was up around $1400. There is a villain at my casino that is known as "amigo" and he is probably one of the most craziest maniacs known at the casino. He routinely 3-bets and 4-bets preflop with 65s, 96s, 22, etc. His range isn't ATC but its wide open, like 80% open.

Come post flop he will often jam with bottom pair and/or call a jam and over jam with bottom pair.

So he is action incarnate, was at my table, and was running good, binking hands. Here is one of the craziest hands. Amigo is in MP with $2k, I'm on the BTN with $1.8k. eff stacks at the table vary from $300 to $2k.

UTG limps, Amigo makes it $60, LP, HJ, CO call, I'm on the BTN with 66 and call, SB and BB call, UTG calls, 8-way action (I decided that in this instance I will set mine my 66 vs isolating with a 4-bet. If I were shallower like at $500-ish I would definitely shove, but at 180bb i'm too deep here to play for stacks preflop, or put another way, its more +EV to setmine knowing I'll get insane direct + implied odds)

flop(320) J 9 2
BB shoves for $400, UTG shoves for $600, Amigo shoves for $2k, folds to me and I obviously fold

turn(2300+) 5 2
BB shows Q J
UTG mucks
Amigo shows 42 and says, "ship it!!!"

So yeah, great freaking table. But then Amigo decides to play the deep stack and he takes his money to the deep stack table, I follow him.

Deep stack table becomes even bigger action as there are two stations on the table. Everyone is about $3k deep or more and the action is just insane. One of the station calls a triple barrel from amigo with J7o on this board.

Board: J Q 9 T 9
Station c/c each street, Amigo triple barrels for $2.5k, station's hand is good

But amigo picks up KK the next hand, triple barrels $2k and gets it back...

So chips are flying.

I pick up JT in MP, UTG opens for $60, station calls, another player calls, I call, Amigo calls, and tilted player calls from BB. I'm at $2k, they cover

flop(360) 9 8 Q
BB opens for 100, station calls, I make it 300, Amigo calls, BB calls, station calls, Everyone else folds. Reason I only raised to $300 is because getting calls are more important than the actual raise amount. Once these guys put money in the pot, I can shove turn and they will call.

Turn(1560) J
BB bets $600, station raises to 1200, I fold, Amigo folds, BB goes AI for $2k more, station snap calls

River(5k+) 7
BB shows KQ
station shows 98o

few hands later I run into a mini cooler.
I have Q T on the BTN, semi-nitty ABC rec-fish is BB, aggro player raises from UTG+1 to $50, I call, BB calls, 3-way action.

Flop(150) A 5 4
BB chks, UTG+1 bets $100, I call, BB calls

Turn(450) K
BB chks, UTG+1 bets $200, I call, BB calls

River(1050) 9
BB bets $700, UTG+1 tank calls, I call

BB shows K6
I muck, yuck

Ugghhhh this hand sucked. Normally I raise here but the reason I don't is that my image is pretty tight and I don't get called by worse. The BB would have folded a weaker flush. When he check calls down I'm pretty sure he is likewise on a flush draw but I have the second nuts.

I top up a bit and then proceed to take a few hits. I get QQ and 3-bet preflop to $150, get 4 callers and the board lands
Flop(750) A K 4

then a few hands later I get KK, 3-bet preflop to $150 get 5 callers (including Amigo and station) and board lands
Flop(900) A 2 Q
and there is a bet and raise to me and obviously I have to fold...

yuck yuck yuck.

I take another couple of hits and then I make the absolute worst leveling horrific play/call I've made probably all year long vs an aggro thinking player.

I'm in the BB with TT, aggro raises to $50, MP calls, folds to me, I call, 3-way action.

Flop(150) K 3 K
I chk, V bets $50, MP folds, I c/r to $150, V tank calls. My plan here is to rep either the King with the c/r or the flush if it hits. I put villain's range as pretty wide, but when he calls my c/r I feel his range is mostly pockets, 88 - QQ, I discount the King since two landed on the board. I also feel this V is sticky enough to be floating with AX or AQ type hands and is floating to take the pot away on later streets (this latter thought is me starting to level myself...)

Turn(450) 6
I lead out $300, V tank calls. Okay, so here is where the leveling starts. I feel that V's range is wide enough to contain a big heart that is drawing or even air so he can make a move on the river. For some reason I just discount the possibility he can have a K, even still. My "I'm super awesome" autopilot is fully engaged and I'm just determined to win this pot through sheer aggression and awesomeness

River(1250) K
I bet $400, V raises putting me all-in for $400-ish more and I spazz call

V shows KQ
I muck and I'm done for the day, down about $500

I had another $1.5k buy-in in my pocket, but whenever I do something horrifically bad like that, I'm just done for the day.

I think that last play was kinda a culmination of leveling and tilt. Running bad on super juicy tables is one of the last leaks I have got to work on plugging as this tends to tilt me. The frustration builds up and before I know it I get myself in a spot like above and just more or less spazz out.

Taking a step back and looking at that hand feels like I'm floating outside of my body watching some incredible donk spew chips like a volcano and then I see that its me and I want to scream WTF are you doing!!!! Uggghhhhh...

There really is just no excuse for it and I need to work on plugging this leak. Hopefully being honest and posting it will help me exorcise this demon as it does keep creeping up in my play every once in a blue moon.

*sigh*

in any event, after the dust settled yesterday, down about $500-ish.

I'm going to play the 1/2nl uncapped game at the Palace today. I give my odds of grinding up $3.5k around 25%. If I can do it and/or get close I'll head to Thunder Valley tonight. If not, then I will just let this tournament go.

The nice thing about poker in the Bay Area is there is always another big tournament on the horizon either here or in LA. Not that I'm writing this one off. I still want to go, but its important to me to follow my own rules. And if worse comes to worse and I don't make it, then meh, I'll just play 10/25nl next week.

So sorry for the horrid session, but sometimes spazz happens (think I just stumbled onto a new poker slogan )

A poker guy I knew from way back used to describe that as "it's raining soup and I am holding a fork"

In for updates. Really nice thread. Your aggression and thought process over the game is something I wish to grasp over the following years. GL!

Loving the thread dgi, keep rocking

This is a valuable instance of visualisation. Maybe you could use this as an "anti-spew" remedy in the future, although it might seem a little negative as a pre-session exercise. I often think it important to consider not so much "what" the mistake was in a particular situation (over-ranging Villain) but "why" it happened (a sequence of frustrating hands).

Side question - Are you able to just ask for a table change? Or do you have to sign up on the list because deep stack is technically a different game?

SF area games look awesome! Nice hands, I feel you on the last TT hand, we all level ourselves on occasion and realizing it and posting it up allows you to keep getting better. Good stuff dgi

QUick update, no go for my WPT min challenge, FWIW, my mini-roll after 5 days is $3k

I played a great game yesterday but I just ended up stepping on set mines all day. Ran into two sets and one turned gin that ended up busting me yesterday and each one was versus rec-fish or super aggro villains that would stack off with TPGK so no way I could avoid it.

First one:
I had AJ in position villain had 55
board: J 5 4 A 3

second one: I had KJ on the BTN and raise pre, V had 55
board: K J 5 3 8

Third one: I had KK in the SB, villain had J9o, I 3-bet pre, 2 callers including V
Board: Q 8 3 T 3 rainbow

yuck... just one of those days. All this happened within 90 minutes

been a while since I ran that freaking bad. Normally, it is possible to minimize the damage in spots like this "if" we are up against super nits, OMCs, or scared money. But in each case, I was up against super aggros and super donks so no way I'm not stacking off.

meh, it happens.

In any event, there will be other tournaments, WSOP is coming up as well as stuff in LA. I will do an LA trip before the WSOP. Likewise, I will be returning to weekly 10/25nl shots on Fridays... I would have done last couple of fridays if I weren't so focused on trying to win WPT seats at Bay101.

Yeah, I've really been putting some serious thought into all the precursors that go into me spewing like this.

Its a unique mix of self induced pressure, frustration, ego, fatigue, and entitlement tilt. Any one or two factors by themselves aren't enough to trigger it. It takes a blend of all elements joined together at "just" the right time kinda like mixing the ingredients of TNT, too much of one and not enough of the other doesn't make me do this... its got to be just the right amount of each ingredient, and I've learned the catalyst is fatigue.

When i've been grinding nonstop over long periods of time, my fatigue factor sets off more readily. To be specific, it isn't so much the "groggy I can't keep my eyes open" type of fatigue. No, its more so the I'm mentally exhausted so I'm just going to switch more and more of my game over to the autopilot kinda fatigue...

anyways, yeah, I've been seriously doing some soul searching on this and hope I can plug this intermittent leak soon. I'll keep you guys posted...

I love this!!!!

great visualization, thanks

yeah, deep stack is a different game. I like to sign up for the deep stack while I play 2/5nl because sometimes the deep stack will be ridiculously juicy. As luck would have it, this player was on the list before me and moved to the deep stack game and I was next up and got to the table about 10 minutes after him...

unfortunately, as gmille said, I was holding a fork during the rainstorm

DGI did you get around to making that mega 10k post you planned to make.

I read it earlier in this thread about your 10k post coming up.

I love reading these posts

Sent from my SCH-I535 using 2+2 Forums

Did you/are you gonna put together anything for the WPT?
I've been reading through this thread, but I'm still only about 2/3 of the way through so I didn't see it if you posted anything more about this.
If you are ever selling action I would really love to buy a piece of you.
Thank you for all the great stuff you have posted on 2+2, I have really learned a lot from you and look forward to reading more.
Best of luck to you

Been lurking for long. Awesome read. Love your style of writing. GL with everything. Will keep following.

J8s call pre is really bad there is no way you can justify it. KK guy actually played it really well not barreling turn as he can't get 3 streets of value from you on that runout.

A3cc float is pretty suicidal even if you're ahead (and there's no way you're ahead often to call) he should have a ton of equity. i also just reread the HH and saw you weren't even closing action which makes the call even worse...

pre is really bad too i don't understand the 75$ raise either. you don't isolate anyone (no one is folding there for $50 more), there was a ~60bb stack, and it lowers SPR. i mean i make it $150 in the spot all day if you want to iso a fish or whatever, but i don't understand the purpose of these "pot builder" raises in spots where you want a high SPR.

also you said no one will fold to you after that hand but if there's a good preflop player at your table he will start 3betting you mercilessly when you give him such a good price to take the limpers' blinds and your own raise. i mean, maybe your games are a lot softer than the ones i play in live/online but with action like that i would expect a 3bet and a cold 4b pretty often at 5/T+ live...

i mean ya you can call the 3b with A3s but i really doubt it will make you money.

A6s shove is good and pretty standard. unless you're not rolled for 2/5 there isn't a single reason not to do it. no one will call without like, JJ+/AK+. and i think most 2/5 players calling ranges are tighter than that.

lol i doubled up a fish 3x at 5/T who was shoving blind 3 hands in a row before felting him (he got up to 800 until KQs>97o). was so tilting. also my friend was needling me after each hand for making loose but +EV isos, which kept losing but the table was letting me do it. finally getting the gamboly spazz's money (and mine back) was nice though.

wow have only read first 100 posts of this but its glorious, subbed and will read rest tomorrow glgl