Yes - same here.

I can go and actually get some sleep now That said ... see you guys in about 6-8 hours.

great thread verneer, super admirable charity effort on your part.

interested in how you classify your b-game or c-game as you put it. say could you put a number to the amount -EV decisions you might make in an hour or in a hundred hands on average? or is it more that you are still making +EV decisions in most all cases but just missing value in spots you might pick up on if you were playing better/concentrating harder?

I'm sure Verneer's C-game is sharper than my A-game, LOL

gl verneer!

also verneer, during your vid (loved it) I noticed you mentioned a conversation I was having with other members about 6 tabling. I think you may have misunderstood. I was only trying to 6-8 table rush as a volume experiment. I felt it may have merit since I felt myself ALWAYS having to play abc poker in the micros. Ie - cheking in spots i would 2 barrell, flop raises, and other more complicated post flop spots .... these just dont really exist as often in 10nl. When I moved up to 25nl I dropped to 4 tables and I often play only 1 or two when it's six max, since I can find more profitable spots to exploit my opponents. I 100% agree it stunts your growth. I would add though, that when you drop down to 2-4 tables, it is IMMENSLY easier to navigate your hud more quickly and make fast decisions.

I found myself often struggling while four tabling to play optimal. Being the donkey I am, I was unwilling to always play only 1-2 tables (action junkie) so I decided to up the volume and put myself in extremely difficult spots speed wise. my winrate suffered to below 1.0 over a 40k hand sample, (28 hours lol) but I can say that my game has absolutley taken off in terms of speed and decision making processing.

anyways this is just some info i wanted to share TLDR LC i know, sry...lol

i really wish someone would make a rush script i would pay good $.

Allright I will post again in the future after I get more hands in. Obviously my current winrate of 27bb/100 is unsustainable (I'm running 20bb/100 over 5k hands now). I'm expecting it to at least decrease by 50% over a larger sample, probably even more.

There's really no other play there. Villain was playing monkeyish and there are just very few value hands in his range. He'll probably go all-in preflop with JJ+ so only 22 and 44 are ahead and maybe some weird two pair, possibly AJ. But when he c/r that big, I'm pretty sure he's not that strong.

Sort of.

When a nit cold calls here, we're generally being set mined. because nits often have close vp.pfr ratios, we can assume he would 3b the top 5% of his range here most of the time, despite our strong open.

Once the flop comes, checking is fine. I would expect one of them to possibly lead with a MP here. (fish love 88-10s etc on these boards) and since we're oop, c/c is not a bad play here. My only worry would be a lot of turn cards could kill our action, but I think 88-JJ would possibly give 1 more street of value.

once villian leads and the action starts, it's time to just fold. The Fish has AA-KK/nuts/def and the nit has medium to strong hand here.....and this is how u get "coolered" in rush, when really, it isn't....a rule i follow strictly after losing idk how many BI learning ----when there is a bet, 3b on the turn or river in the micros (and byond) you need to examine whether or not you have the very best or 2nd best holding b4 continuing unless ur on some sick level fest which really isnt possible untill nl50

i think bet flop is better? to get info like as i aggressor, i bet then get raised means he hit set or straight.. check/call wont know if he hit set or straight until get raised on later street which is more expensive.

i dunno..

were never looking to "bet for info". Such is a common mistake. we bet for ..
1) Value.
2) Bluff.
3) Capitalization of Dead Money

That's right. There are also times when we check for value - something people don't do enough of.

Well, actually, IMHO every single bet is basically for more info on the "RANGES OF THE VILLAINS" plus to give the kind of info on "OUR RANGE" we want to give. That is, if we apply strategic range thinking. Also, in the situation, a strategy of bet-fold is, in fact, to bet for more info: "I bet here for value but fold if I get raised, because if he raises his range crushes that of mine".

Meaning check to induce bluffs?

Checking can induce bluffs, but villain might also valuebet a worse hand he would otherwise fold to a cbet or only call one street instead of two.

Betting for information or protection solely is usually bad in no limit hold em. This is a limit hold em play since in limit hold em bet sizes are much smaller compared to the total pot size. If you estimate you have 80% equity on the turn with 66 on QQ42 but no worse hands will call a bet and no better hands will fold then betting 2/3 pot is a mistake. Since you would be betting 2/3 pot to protect 1/5 pot. Not great odds. If you're 99% sure villain is check/folding or villain might call with a pair of 4s, a bet is much better.

Reviewing a Session:

After a pretty bad session (like I had yesterday), it's good to go back and examine your play. One way to do that is to look at big pots that you've played. Yesterday, I lost 40 BB's or more in 18 pots.

Those 18 pots can be classified into the following categories:

1. Losing a flip (2). Completely standard and it happens. Yesterday I lost twice with AK vs. QQ in 4-handed situations (i.e. I raise from the CO, get 3B by the SB, and shove my AK).

2. Getting in a big PP preflop, find yourself up against a better one (2). For example, villain here is playing 27/20 over 30 hands:

Full Tilt Poker $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em - 9 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter By DeucesCracked Poker Videos

MP2: $35.24
CO: $38.02
BTN: $31.82
SB: $27.36
BB: $25.00
UTG: $11.35
Hero (UTG+1): $12.50
UTG+2: $46.16
MP1: $56.38

Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero is UTG+1 with Q Q
1 fold, Hero raises to $0.75, 2 folds, MP2 raises to $2.25, 4 folds, Hero raises to $12.50 all in, MP2 calls $10.25

Flop: ($25.35) 5 8 4 (2 players - 1 is all in)

Turn: ($25.35) 6 (2 players - 1 is all in)

River: ($25.35) T (2 players - 1 is all in)

Final Pot: $25.35
MP2 shows A A (a pair of Aces)
Hero shows Q Q (a pair of Queens)
MP2 wins $24.09
(Rake: $1.26)

Keep in mind that I only have 50 BB's which makes my decision fairly easy. I am 100% ok with how I played both of these hands and neither is particularly interesting.

3. Getting it in with 65%+ equity (2). Once preflop (KK vs. A6o), and then this hand on the turn (villain was 27/20 over 43 hands and I obv I felt he could have worse here with < 1/2 PSB on the turn):

Full Tilt Poker $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em - 9 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter By DeucesCracked Poker Videos

CO: $21.35
BTN: $30.11
Hero (SB): $16.40
BB: $27.62
UTG: $25.78
UTG+1: $17.55
UTG+2: $22.30
MP1: $37.17
MP2: $17.54

Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero is SB with K Q
1 fold, UTG+1 raises to $0.75, 2 folds, MP2 calls $0.75, 2 folds, Hero raises to $3, BB calls $2.75, 1 fold, MP2 calls $2.25

Flop: ($9.75) 4 T Q (3 players)
Hero bets $5.25, BB calls $5.25, MP2 folds

Turn: ($20.25) 9 (2 players)
Hero bets $8.15 all in, BB calls $8.15

River: ($36.55) 3 (2 players - 1 is all in)

Final Pot: $36.55
Hero shows K Q (a pair of Queens)
BB shows A K (a flush, Ace high)
BB wins $34.73
(Rake: $1.82)

4. Slow-playing and then having villain get there (4). Those are the ones that need the most analysis. Sometimes slow-playing is a good thing as it allows villains to make second-best hands on later streets. In this case, villain was 23/18 and very aggressive. I decided to slow-play the flop, and then call down.

Full Tilt Poker $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em - 9 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter By DeucesCracked Poker Videos

UTG: $39.43
UTG+1: $37.08
UTG+2: $10.00
Hero (MP1): $17.66
MP2: $11.50
CO: $29.70
BTN: $25.00
SB: $32.18
BB: $93.55

Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero is MP1 with 4 4
UTG raises to $0.75, 2 folds, Hero calls $0.75, 1 fold, CO calls $0.75, 3 folds

Flop: ($2.60) 8 4 K (3 players)
UTG bets $1.50, Hero calls $1.50, CO folds

Turn: ($5.60) 3 (2 players)
UTG bets $4, Hero calls $4

River: ($13.60) 5 (2 players)
UTG bets $12.60, Hero calls $11.41 all in

Final Pot: $36.42
UTG shows 9 T (a flush, Ten high)
Hero mucks 4 4
UTG wins $34.60
(Rake: $1.82)

5. "WTF was I thinking?" (1). I am ok with a river bet here, but once he raises, it's just a fold. I am 100% sure my mind turned off there for a few seconds.

Full Tilt Poker $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em - 9 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter By DeucesCracked Poker Videos

CO: $26.45
Hero (BTN): $21.22
SB: $17.27
BB: $17.91
UTG: $10.35
UTG+1: $21.06
UTG+2: $48.80
MP1: $25.38
MP2: $40.53

Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero is BTN with 7 9
5 folds, CO raises to $0.75, Hero raises to $2.50, 1 fold, BB calls $2.25, 1 fold

Flop: ($5.85) 5 7 8 (2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks

Turn: ($5.85) J (2 players)
BB bets $3.50, Hero calls $3.50

River: ($12.85) 9 (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $6, BB raises to $11.91 all in, Hero calls $5.91

Final Pot: $36.67
Hero mucks 7 9
BB shows J J (three of a kind, Jacks)
BB wins $34.84
(Rake: $1.83)

6. Overplaying hands postflop (2). Villain is a nit, I took AK out of his range preflop and shouldn't have. I blame me having 50 BB's on this.

Full Tilt Poker $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em - 9 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter By DeucesCracked Poker Videos

BB: $25.70
UTG: $26.25
Hero (UTG+1): $12.50
UTG+2: $12.98
MP1: $32.17
MP2: $19.17
CO: $30.24
BTN: $35.71
SB: $25.71

Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero is UTG+1 with A Q
1 fold, Hero raises to $0.75, 3 folds, CO calls $0.75, 3 folds

Flop: ($1.85) A 7 3 (2 players)
Hero bets $1, CO raises to $2.70, Hero raises to $11.75 all in, CO calls $9.05

Turn: ($25.35) 4 (2 players - 1 is all in)

River: ($25.35) 9 (2 players - 1 is all in)

Final Pot: $25.35
Hero shows A Q (a pair of Aces)
CO shows A K (a pair of Aces)
CO wins $24.09
(Rake: $1.26)

7. Bad bluff (1). Meh ... sometimes you get owned.

8. Bluff-catching gone bad (1). Sometimes they got it. This one is close:

Full Tilt Poker $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em - 9 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter By DeucesCracked Poker Videos

BB: $42.27
UTG: $9.55
UTG+1: $10.35
UTG+2: $32.39
MP1: $23.58
Hero (MP2): $12.50
CO: $24.48
BTN: $9.91
SB: $6.14

Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero is MP2 with J A
4 folds, Hero raises to $0.75, 1 fold, BTN calls $0.75, 1 fold, BB calls $0.50

Flop: ($2.35) T 6 K (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $1.50, BTN folds, BB calls $1.50

Turn: ($5.35) Q (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $3.50, BB calls $3.50

River: ($12.35) 9 (2 players)
BB bets $36.52 all in, Hero calls $6.75 all in

Final Pot: $25.85
BB shows J Q (a flush, King high)
Hero mucks J A
BB wins $24.56
(Rake: $1.29)

9. Raising due to fold equity, calling it off (or shoving) with actual equity (2) (there has to be a better name for this). An opportunity arrives which screams "raise" and then you call it off with equity:

Full Tilt Poker $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em - 9 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter By DeucesCracked Poker Videos

SB: $47.34
BB: $10.28
UTG: $25.00
UTG+1: $22.65
UTG+2: $36.15
MP1: $25.10
MP2: $25.00
Hero (CO): $12.50
BTN: $6.60

Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero is CO with 4 A
5 folds, Hero raises to $0.50, 2 folds, BB calls $0.25

Flop: ($1.10) 2 3 9 (2 players)
BB bets $0.75, Hero calls $0.75

Turn: ($2.60) K (2 players)
BB bets $1, Hero raises to $2.75, BB raises to $9.03 all in, Hero calls $6.28

River: ($20.66) 6 (2 players - 1 is all in)

Final Pot: $20.66
BB shows 9 7 (a pair of Nines)
Hero shows 4 A (Ace King high)
BB wins $19.63
(Rake: $1.03)

10. Cooler (1). TT < 55 on 556T8 board.

What to take away from this:

You want most of your losing pots to be due to coolers, flips, or bad beats. The slow-playing can go either way and is very villain dependent. The ones that you don't want to be losing a lot of pots in are overplaying your hands post-flop and "wtf was I thinking?" (I need a better name for this as well).

Also, if you guys have any other categories in which you lost a big pot, please let me know - I would like to refine this list for the future as a session-evaluation tool.

Not always ... you can check to get people to level themselves with their made hands on later streets.

So Verneer, what was your analysis of this hand you posted?

You could easily call this "OldRodding" as I seem to do it a lot

Great stuff! I am learning a lot from this thread, just can't seem to apply it to the tables yet. Still on a downward spiral.

Something that is confusing me lately: everyone says "Rush players only play monster hands, and if you get re-raised you're beat". Generally that's been true, but in the past couple of weeks, I've had all-ins called by villains with 79o, A3o, 24o, 78s (at least it was something of a hand). I've had several people 3-bet me all-in preflop with 83s and worse when I had a premium hand.

I'm starting to wonder if the player base is changing because they've all heard that "Rush players only play monster hands" too?

Unfortunately, they usually win the hand. I've lost at least 10 AA/KK hands AIPF just in the past 2 days. I'm down almost $70 for the week and it shows no signs of slowing down.

I went through my sessions a few days ago and made notes on a lot of people making plays like this. Problem is, I rarely see them in a hand again to put that knowledge to use.

Could there be something in my stats that they are seeing that makes them think they can beat me with such hands? Or is it just an incredible bad streak? I'm not really sure what to do next.

I had the same roller coaster ride with Rush where I started off and won about 4 bi at 5nl, then within a session or two I was down 4 bi at 5nl. Then went to 10nl rush and lost 3 bi. (Tilt and PUI was definitely involved)

I saw where Verneer said that Rush is not good for beginning players who want to develop reads and get better in general, so I switched to playing 2.25 sng's (8-10 tables) and 10nl 6max (3-4 tables) with some decent success so far. Now I'm back up to where I was before Rush, LOL.

I started playing Rush back in November. At first I did fairly well. I had ups and downs, but overall I was up for several weeks in a row. It just seems like the last month that things have really dropped for me.

I like Rush because of the volume it lets me put in. I made Ironman silver level in December just playing about 90 minutes a day. I just wish I could get my head around how I'm supposed to play it. Every time I think I have it figured out, something changes and I drop another couple buyins.

I've played Rush poker for maybe 20 hours and I'd never recommend it to anyone who wants to learn to play "real poker" or to develop as a player. This is mostly because of the fact 99% of the time there are no reads or any dynamics in play, and IMHO these two are one of the most important aspects of playing good poker. Rush is mostly playing with tighter ranges and a more simple game that lacks some elements of normal (Online) poker.

There are, of course, a lot of fish, and you can get in huge volumes of hands and make even more money, but in the long run I doubt is more profitable to anyone else but those already thinking at a high level.

But you can disregard that since I'm a breakeven player in these games (after a small sample) and I certainly have huge leaks at Rush games. I just don't feel it's real poker. The only exception being the less played variations where there are only a couple of dozen players and you get to learn how the others play and certain dynamics can develop.

You bring up a good point.

I almost feel like rush tables are a multi-headed dragon, one day you can play a session and it's super tight and passive, and another day your getting 3-bet constantly and aggression is everywhere. Or, the tempo of the game could change in a middle of a session. It's a very dynamic and changing atmosphere.

It's going to be hard to come up with a for sure standard strategy to beat rush, i just don't think it exists, I think you have to be flexible enough to adjust your strategy on the current state of the rush table and be aware of when that state shifts, it's like a living breathing organism, one mass pool of players all reacting to each other's cause and effect.

Perhaps why Verneer is having such difficulty explaining his ups and downs, how everything seems to click at one session, and the next it's just not working.

Just found this thread, really look forward to following it!!!!

You are not alone Sir
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvzde...eature=related

I have a question about Rush and emotional control:

Everytime you play a hand of poker you run the risk of ending up on the wrong side of a bad beat, a suckout or a cooler. We all know this and some of us are better equipped than others in dealing with it.

I don't think these situations come up more frequent in Rush compared to normal poker. (Maybe the "readless" environment in Rush creates slightly more situations where the end result could be described as "unlucky".)

However. I'm pretty sure that we feel they come up more often and this is just because of the huge number of hands you can play per hour in Rush.

Lets say you play 4 tables of old school poker. You get to see ~350 h/h.
Assume bad beats (or hands that have a tiltfactor) occur once every 100 hands. Well then in "normal" poker you will have 3-4 tilting moments/hour.
If they are evenly distributed, which usually they are not, then every 15 minutes you will tilt.

If the same amount of bad beats happens while 4 tabling Rush, then you will tilt every 5 minutes! (assuming you play ~1200h/h).

In normal poker you therefor have more time in between the tilting hands where you can cool off and return to your A-game. In Rush there is no cooling off, to some extent you are on constant tilt ;-)

So after a long rant I finally reach my question

How do you deal with tilt in Rush?
The same way as in normal poker or do you have a special way to cope with it?

Imo, emotional control and tilt management is THE key to winning in poker, at least in micro/ssnl and especially in Rush.

i think the single best advice anyone can give a micro player is to b/f in nearly every single situation on nearly every single street. Also never ever play more than 6 tables. Also check out my challenge and help me make it fun