No, its not.

Read more closely.

Also, what principle of NLHE does value betting AJ on AT9 violate.

Re-read your reply to Duke. You will see this sentence:

"Also, previous reasoning that he may float because he perceives you to be cbetting 100% which he may mistakenly think is "too much" when in reality it's probably correct on A-high boards as the OOP preflop 3-bettor in a full ring situation."

Always c-betting AJ on all Axx boards is going to get you into spots where your value bet is too thin...especially when Hero's image is already tight.

Yes, you quoted that last time. I was referring to villain's perception of hero's range.

I disagree. Depends on preflop action.

I guess you are insinuating that you should c-bet AJ on all Axx boards when you 3-bet a LAG'S LP raise (assuming LAG defends widely).

What do you do with AJ on a ATTr board when you c-bet flop OOP (just like you do 100% of time)...and you face an ALL-IN on the turn or river? How about KK?

Sounds like you might start wishing that you didn't c-bet AJ and KK 100% of time on an ATTr board.

I retract. You should never do anything 100 percent of the time because poker is so situational.

Basically any 1/3 game where someone is thinking about floating my 100 percent c bet range is not a game i want to be playing.

5 years ago you could have played 5/10 or higher and maybe one person understood much about poker concepts.

I thought his advice on how to play the hand was fine, think alot of people take the internet way too seriously.

I think its just a miscommunication. Not a big deal, like I said I was just talking about villain's perception, which is important to know because it's applicable in reverse if you KNOW a super tight guy is cbetting 100% it still may likely be correct to fold most of your range on certain boards, either exploitably or not.

Anyway anyone can PM me if they want to continue discussing that hand.

Let's do 3 PLO hands! Same drill as before, first come first serve, anyone welcome to post them.

Playing 5-handed, $2/5 plo. loose reg with spewy tendencies has been playing some hands preflop/OTF without looking at his cards. He straddles and lines up his cards under his card-protector. I have pointed out to him a few hands ago that I noticed he played a hand blind.

pre:
folds to hero($2.5k) in CO with QJsTs9 who limps, reg ($1.2kish)blind raises pot, hero re-raises pot, villain blind calls

Flop($260ish):
KdKs8d

Hero bets $125, villain blind raises to $640 with ~$400-500 behind, hero ?

lol we already discussed this hand, but 40% equity vs random hand, and chance he might fold A-high, jam.

$1-2 blinds with a $5 bring in and $100-$500 buy-in. Game has only been going 2 hours so stacks aren't very deep yet. SB/BB round up to $5 for counting the pot.

SB+BB post.
UTG straddles $5.
UTG+1 ($500) makes it $10 (Pot $20). Doesn't like to limp so he often min-raises. Never afraid to gamble for stacks pre regardless of his hand and opponents range.
UTG+2 ($1200) calls $10 (Pot $30). Older fishy guy. Would play 66KJ for a raise but turns up the aggression post flop in position to take down enough pots to cover his poor preflop play.
MP1 ($200) calls $10 (Pot $40). Fishy lady, everyone wants her in the game.
MP2 ($1100) makes it $20 (Pot $60). Whale that doesn't like to fold.
MP3 ($500) calls $20 (Pot $80). 80 year old man but not OMC, plays way too many hands.

BTN ($905) I look down at AA77 no suits. I can pot now to $120 and we'll probably go 5 ways to the flop. Nobody has premium hands however nobody likes folding pre. With my image this play would basically turn my hand up as AA.

If I flat I estimate there's a 30-40% chance that UTG+1 will either make it $40 or he may re-pot to try and clear out some people. Even if he re-pots I don't think that will clear everyone out but that will let me get in enough or all of my stack to not care what the flop is.

Hero?

I like potting the AA77 because we have the button, making post flop much eaiser for us to play.

Simple spot that I think I know the answer to but would like to hear your thoughts. BTW, this thread motivated me to give PLO a shot (thank you!) and I am now in love with the game, sooooo much more fun than NLHE. I've played mostly 1/2/5 with some 5/10 sprinkled in and I can't believe how soft the games are. I'm still pretty new to the game though, anyway...

1/2/5

Hero ($470) limps 5679 one suit in EP, Villain (covers) limps, another guy makes it $20 and we go 5-way to the flop.

Flop: A85r 1 bdfd ($100)

Hero checks, Villain insta-pots $100, folds around to Hero?

Villain is one of the tighter players in the game (not saying much) but he's still bad. I put his range at sets, wraps, A8, A5, and some 8765, 9865 stuff. I've heard PLO players talk about how important it is to realize your equity, so I feel like calling here and having to c/f a lot of turns is really bad? So are you always just getting it in on the flop in these spots where you're +EV against the guy's range?

In this hand I only have $50 behind after I pot the flop so it's not an issue, but if I had $670 to start the hand instead and potted the flop and he just calls, what do you do on a rainbow Q turn? How about an A turn? In this scenario I'd have $250 behind OTT btw. I've ran into several spots where I pot the flop to commit myself and then the villain ruins my plan by flatting and idk what to do on blanks even though I have 70% of my stack or whatever in the pot. Thank you!

Bradley, if he's really raising that % than calling seems like a no brainer.

Yea BradleyT, with those numbers it's not even really close, I would definitely call to try and get dead money if you get the chance to repot to like $200 or something.

You could also consider raising to $30 if you think that might induce MP2 to raise again too without affecting the chances of UTG+1 raising, but if you have a tight image calling is probably best.

scrolls, your hand has some really basic fundamental topics that I will get back to later once I wake up more, but that's a good hand to post for educational purposes.

in your hand as played, if villain has ANY bet-fold range at all (for example you said he would do this with A5, will probably fold to a jam right?), jamming is much, much better with these stack sizes. Deeper, I would just call.

OK here we go.

First off, some preflop notes. I think your preflop play is fine, but just as an fyi you can only flop the nut wrap on 43x (where x is not a 3, 4, 5, 6) or 85x (with some exceptions for x again). If you don't have the nut wrap continuing in a multiway pot can be pretty marginal, even on a rainbow board. On a two-tone board without your suit, sometimes you can't even call 1 bet depending on the action. Of course sometimes you will flop a straight too, but in other words, your hand is deceptively weak as "flopability" is quite key to PLO starting hand strength.

Next, some basic pot odds for getting it in on the flop. You need to commit $450 to win $550, so you need at least $450/($450+$550)=45% equity. Against a set with fairly weak side cards, your equity is almost good enough:

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi Simulation

820 trials (Exhaustive)

board: A85

Hand	Pot equity	Wins	Ties
9s7c6d5s	40.73%	334	0
AdAhQsTh	59.27%	486	0

However of course villain will have other hands in his range. For example if he does this with the small 17 card wrap:

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi Simulation

820 trials (Exhaustive)

board: A85

Hand	Pot equity	Wins	Ties
9s7c6d5s	70.61%	488	182
7h6h4d3s	29.39%	150	182

I will leave it as an exercise to anyone who wants to calculate your equity vs. his range, but suffice it to say jamming here can't possibly be very bad except against the nittiest of nits. Additionally, if you ever have fold equity and he folds a hand like A5xx, that's a massive, massive win for you, so I would usually jam here.

~~~~~~~~~

If we're deeper and villain only takes this line with sets and never folds, then calling is much better for many reasons.

1) First off, it is quite obviously bad to put money in the pot with no fold equity and the worst hand equity. I hope this needs no more explanation :P

2) You're not forced to c/f your equity on the turn- let's say it's a total rainbow brick, you still can (essentially) profitably call a pot-sized if you have ANY implied odds at all, or if there is ANY chance villain is bluffing, etc.:

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi Simulation

40 trials (Exhaustive)

board: A852

Hand	Pot equity	Wins	Ties
9s7c6d5s	32.50%	13	0
AdAhQsTh	67.50%	27	0

Furthermore take note of this turn card too. It completes a straight draw, so villain might check behind and give you a free card. If he never checks here, well you will sometimes (very rarely, but still) actually have the straight and can c/r, or if he's a typical rec player who doesn't really look at ranges but won't call a river bet with "only a set" on a straight possible board, you can c/r and barrel any non-board pairing river and win (not for the faint of heart).

3) very importantly, a significant portion of the equity in villain's range comes from the turn being an A, 8, or 5. When it comes one of these cards about ~15% of the time, you can fold and save yourself $$$$$ (do NOT make a rookie mistake of getting suckered in if you make trips).

4) If you do make your straight on the turn, most villains will (incorrectly) pay off an almost full pot-sized bet to try to draw to a boat, so you have great implied odds (remember, he needs 33% equity):

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi Simulation

40 trials (Exhaustive)

board: A854

Hand	Pot equity	Wins	Ties
9s7c6d5s	77.50%	31	0
AdAhQsTh	22.50%	9	0

~~~~~~~~~

OK now to answer your other questions. This is super super basic poker theory/pot odds and also super super important to know- so to answer your question about if you started with $670, you c/r the flop to $400, the pot going into the turn is $900 and you have $250 behind. If villain jams, you have to call $250 to win $1150, and you need $250/($250+$1150) = 18% equity to call, so basically it's a super snap call if you chose to check and villain jammed on a rainbow Q turn (or he was out of position and jammed).

However, if you're going to call any bet here, you might as well jam yourself so you don't let a hand like 7643 get away for free while villain will jam all made hands. To clarify, and this is an important point as I see people make this mistake all the time, there is basically no downside to just jamming yourself instead of checking on a Q turn with 1 pot-sized bet left or less.

On an A turn, I would probably just /shrug and still just jam it in despite the fact you could be drawing dead, but villain should have jammed all his aces up hands on the flop anyway. If you get villain to fold a hand like 9876 then that's just a massive, massive win.

~~~~~~~~~

EDIT: Also I realize I haven't commented on the "committing yourself so you don't have to fold later". Well honestly it's such total nonsense I'm not sure why people still say it, but I've heard it used so many times- I suspect it's because you can't win a pot by folding. So... the logic is basically saying your hand is so weak you can't even call a turn bet, so therefore you commit your entire stack? Think about how much sense that makes.

BTN ($905) I look down at AA77 no suits and call $20 (pot $100). I take the chance UTG+1 is going to get fancy. If he doesn't well then I'm playing a super multiway pot with 24% to flop a set and I'm in position. If I flop an ace vs. someone elses set my hand is so hidden I can't see them getting away.

SB calls $20. BB calls $20. Straddle calls $15.

UTG+1 obliges with a pot size raise which dealer says is $185 (but I think that's maybe $10 too high now?) I'm pretty happy now - AA vs. his weak range and hopefully dead money in the pot.

UTG+2 calls $185 which is a little surprising, Fold, Guy who made it $20 calls $185. Old man next to me calls $185.

I ship $905. SB/BB/Straddle fold. UTG+1 calls all in for his $500. UTG+1 folds leaving his $185 dead. Guy who made it $20 goes all in for $1100, and old man calls for his $500.

So it worked out well and now we just let equities and dead money do their thing. I'm last aggressor for the biggest side pot so I have to show first so I just flip my hand. Of course comments from the peanut gallery... "I folded an Ace, oh I folded a 7".

Old man next to me shows his AK88....so I have no ace outs and I guess one 7 out...
UTG+1 shows his TT95 1 suit.....nice EP raise and repot buddy.
The guy who has me covered doesn't show.

I call out for a deuce deuce deuce flop and it's pretty damn close.
444
The turn basically can't improve anyones hand
2
River can only hit someones pocket pair....
6
mhig and I scoop $2900.

So much gamble in PLO.

sounds like a good game.

Awesome response Aesah, really appreciate it.

Subbed! GL

Are you going back to Florida? Back to LA? Back to Macau? Up to Maryland or Philly? Nasty winters up there though.