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Deeper and deeper: Down 75 buyins, still chasing the PLO dream Deeper and deeper: Down 75 buyins, still chasing the PLO dream

10-04-2023 , 03:55 PM
Hand 1 played perfectly, can't imagine we ever want to raise this combo on any street

Hand 2 indifferent towards ch turn vs bet bet, it's very villain dependent

Hand 3 do not like this at all 4 ways, it's spew, our blocker effect becomes less of a factor the more players we face, and the only backdoor we have is pretty bad

Hand 4 pure fold pf according to trainer (3b is losing 0.29bb which is a lot), be careful in SB and BB -- even hands that are winning down to +0.1bb I'm wary 3betting vs good players, it's difficult to play 3b pots OOP and it's easy to turn that +0.1 into negative ev

Hand 6 quite surprised computer wants to fold turn, guess blocking KK might be it, maybe, dunno. Does it call turn with any 2pair, like jt76 no fd, what why? I call this off every day of the week bar vs hardcore nits where I fold turn
Deeper and deeper: Down 75 buyins, still chasing the PLO dream Quote
10-04-2023 , 05:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lol47
Hand 1 played perfectly, can't imagine we ever want to raise this combo on any street

Hand 2 indifferent towards ch turn vs bet bet, it's very villain dependent

Hand 3 do not like this at all 4 ways, it's spew, our blocker effect becomes less of a factor the more players we face, and the only backdoor we have is pretty bad

Hand 4 pure fold pf according to trainer (3b is losing 0.29bb which is a lot), be careful in SB and BB -- even hands that are winning down to +0.1bb I'm wary 3betting vs good players, it's difficult to play 3b pots OOP and it's easy to turn that +0.1 into negative ev

Hand 6 quite surprised computer wants to fold turn, guess blocking KK might be it, maybe, dunno. Does it call turn with any 2pair, like jt76 no fd, what why? I call this off every day of the week bar vs hardcore nits where I fold turn
Hand 1: yea i agree. i think i previously looked at it as a rainbow board and not a 2 suit (like in-game). on a 2 suit flop we need FD or 2p to find raise. but on KQ4 rainbow (vision has 4 not 5), we can raise with any JTxx 2 pair

Hand 3: good point about blocker removal value disappearing multiway. In my head i thought it was relatively static

Hand 4: yea i typo'd / was confused when i wrote this. SB it's clear fold, BB it's a call. You're spot on, def shouldn't be 3betting either.

Hand 6: Computer folds most JTxx without BDFD on the flop. QJxx X/C with OESD+BDFD
Deeper and deeper: Down 75 buyins, still chasing the PLO dream Quote
10-06-2023 , 04:58 PM
October Goals

Simple as can be:
  • Play 20k hands
  • Review 100% of hands
  • When / if I start feeling the rage: focus on feeling the feeling and letting it pass before I make any decision. Do this at least 3 times
  • Journal about my experience feeling the feelings
Deeper and deeper: Down 75 buyins, still chasing the PLO dream Quote
10-06-2023 , 05:08 PM
imgur doesn't seem to be working:

    Ignition - $2 PL Hi (6 max) - Omaha Hi - 6 players
    Hand converted by Holdem Manager 3

    MP: $180.00 (90 bb)
    CO: $28.00 (14 bb)
    Hero (BTN): $894.89 (447.4 bb)
    SB: $139.00 (69.5 bb)
    BB: $268.79 (134.4 bb)
    UTG: $706.07 (353 bb)

    SB posts $1.00, BB posts $2.00

    Pre Flop: (pot: $3.00) MP has Q 6 8 T, CO has J A 7 7, Hero has 7 A 9 8, SB has 4 J K K, BB has Q A T Q, UTG has 3 K 6 5
    fold, MP calls $2.00, CO calls $2.00, Hero raises to $11.00, SB calls $10.00, BB calls $9.00, MP calls $9.00, CO raises to $28.00 and is all-in, Hero raises to $117.00, SB raises to $139.00 and is all-in, BB raises to $268.79 and is all-in, fold, Hero calls $151.79

    Flop: ($715.58, 4 players) A K 2

    Turn: ($715.58, 4 players) 8

    River: ($715.58, 4 players) 2

    Results: $715.58 pot ($0.00 rake)
    Final Board: A K 2 8 2

    CO shows J A 7 7: (Two Pair, Aces and Twos)
    Main Pot: [$123.00]: (Pre 24%, Flop 7%, Turn 0%)

    Hero shows 7 A 9 8: (Two Pair, Aces and Eights)
    Main Pot: [$123.00]: (Pre 32%, Flop 2%, Turn 0%)
    Side Pot #1: [$333.00]: (Pre 42%, Flop 2%, Turn 0%)
    Side Pot #2: [$259.58]: (Pre 46%, Flop 34%, Turn 79%)

    SB shows 4 J K K: (Full House, Kings full of Twos)
    Main Pot: [$123.00]: (Pre 27%, Flop 78%, Turn 92%)
    Side Pot #1: [$333.00]: (Pre 37%, Flop 83%, Turn 92%)

    BB shows Q A T Q: (Two Pair, Aces and Twos)
    Main Pot: [$123.00]: (Pre 16%, Flop 13%, Turn 8%)
    Side Pot #1: [$333.00]: (Pre 23%, Flop 15%, Turn 8%)
    Side Pot #2: [$259.58]: (Pre 54%, Flop 66%, Turn 21%)

    Hero wins $258.13
    SB wins $122.31


    i've never really expected any of my opponents to be cheating online, maybe naively (except once on a sketchy web poker site). and i think this hand could EASILY be explained by SB saw how much money was in the pot and went with it.

    that said SB was playing like 15vpip/8pfr over 100 hands with a 4% 3bet. so about as nitty as can be. and then he decides to up and rip in KK preflop to a 5 bet shove when it just happens 3 of the aces are gone? does seem sketchy. i mean again, there's a ton of money in the pot so they could have easily been like yolo pot odds. but it does look suspicious.

    i'm not going to spend a ton of resources looking for cheats, just going to hope for the best and focus on what i can control, but it's definitely going to sit in the back of my mind.

    for every cheater that gets caught, i'm sure there are dozens more flying under the radar, with software and **** that would make us cry.

    that nagging feeling that i need to switch to live is getting stronger.

    Last edited by grass elephant; 10-06-2023 at 05:17 PM.
    Deeper and deeper: Down 75 buyins, still chasing the PLO dream Quote
    10-07-2023 , 03:26 AM
    I can't speak for Ignition's game integrity, but I can tell you that would be a completely standard hand playing live. Even from a nit. PLO makes people do weird things.
    Deeper and deeper: Down 75 buyins, still chasing the PLO dream Quote
    10-07-2023 , 07:19 AM
    This hand isn't a red flag imo. I'd be more concerned seeing hands like donking on boards with no donks, facing aggression without appropriate blockers etc. If somebody is spazzing out in a significantly -ev spot, it's unlikely collusion could swing this decision to +ev.
    Deeper and deeper: Down 75 buyins, still chasing the PLO dream Quote
    10-07-2023 , 11:15 AM
    Doesn't seem unusual at all tbh
    Deeper and deeper: Down 75 buyins, still chasing the PLO dream Quote
    10-13-2023 , 01:36 PM
    cold calling 5bets with KKxx single suit is always unusual what yall smokin. i guess the iggy games are dry AF lol

    that said, the fact it's <75bb def takes a lot of the weirdness out
    Deeper and deeper: Down 75 buyins, still chasing the PLO dream Quote
    10-14-2023 , 02:59 AM
    what a session

    Deeper and deeper: Down 75 buyins, still chasing the PLO dream Quote
    10-15-2023 , 02:27 PM
    October 2023 Halfway Check-in

    I’m at about 5k hands this month. Not really on pace for 20k hands. My last few sessions have gone ok but I have not been playing well. I think the heart of it is playing with too many distractions, and not enough effort getting my mind right before sitting down to play. While I haven’t gone full blown monkey tilt or rage, I have felt extremely discouraged in a few recent sessions. It has definitely impacted my play and focus. I’m more aware of it now, so will try and do better in my next sessions.


    Hand 82

    Spoiler:

    Shrug. Can we fold turn? Lol. seems criminal despite BB’s range weighted heavily to AA.


    Hand 83

    Spoiler:

    Idk seems kind of standard after the flop bet. I can’t imagine doing much else but flop felt weird in-game. Maybe a smaller flop bet given we’re deep? None of my study material goes over deep play so i’m dumber than usual in these spots


    Hand 84

    Spoiler:

    My flop size was too large. In solver land there are very few to no pot size bets on the turn. That said idk how else to get the money in, other than the rare times we X turn and are lucky enough for the villain to bet and let us X/R. There’s so many spots like these in PLO. seems like if we X turn and give all the draws a free card? Super lucky villain found the call down against me. meh dumb game.


    Hand 85

    Spoiler:

    Vision is B50 on this flop. Pretty sure the turn is standard w b50 or b100 on flop. I’m still not 100% clear on why B50>B100 on the flop. I know we want villain's range to face indifference when we bet. I think (could be wrong), but the OOP 3bettor has an equity advantage on this board, and is unlikely to improve, so should want to shrink the # of betting rounds. So that makes me think this is a B100 but vision says b50. Damn you vision.
    Deeper and deeper: Down 75 buyins, still chasing the PLO dream Quote
    10-25-2023 , 02:45 PM
    13k hands so far this month

    7k to go

    slightly winning

    haven't tilted much

    mostly playing well

    let's get that paper and finish strong
    Deeper and deeper: Down 75 buyins, still chasing the PLO dream Quote
    10-26-2023 , 07:18 PM
    i wish poker sites did more to encourage people to play HU. like maybe lower the rake and/or add a bounty based on time spent at the table thus far? it's so lame how many cowardly (they just don't like getting destroyed by the rake) regs there are who snap quit, or grim the button and quit, or win a pot and then snap quit.

    if i'm playing a stake, i will play anyone who sits down. idgaf. especially because it's anonymous and i have an excuse for not knowing someone is a crusher lol (at least right away). at the very least it's going to be a great opportunity to learn. i wish more regs had this attitude instead of snap quitting. yellow bellies.
    Deeper and deeper: Down 75 buyins, still chasing the PLO dream Quote
    10-27-2023 , 09:19 AM
    Theyre not cowards they just value their time. Wouldnt matter if there was no rake, most would still quit you.
    Deeper and deeper: Down 75 buyins, still chasing the PLO dream Quote
    10-30-2023 , 03:08 PM
    i can't speak much to their value system other than they're ok grimming the btn, snap quitting after a fish leaves, and snap leaving after winning a pot hu etc. is what it is but i think the people who repeatedly do that are shameful cowards. doesn't matter really it's perfectly legal. difference of opinions on the morality.

    most importantly: if they really valued their time they wouldn't be playing poker.
    Deeper and deeper: Down 75 buyins, still chasing the PLO dream Quote
    10-30-2023 , 04:02 PM
    the legend himself limon is sharing some wisdom on 2p2 again in NVG: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/2...thing-1827915/
    Deeper and deeper: Down 75 buyins, still chasing the PLO dream Quote
    11-01-2023 , 02:24 PM
    the burning desire to complain about run bad on the internet to strangers, but then you check your HH and see lots of blunderous leaks sinking the ship
    Deeper and deeper: Down 75 buyins, still chasing the PLO dream Quote
    11-01-2023 , 08:17 PM
    October 2023 Recap




    Month was going ok until i got absolutely obliterated and lost 10 buyins on the 31st. After the session I was feeling the absolute worst but was able to move past it for the most part, and even reviewed some hands after the misery subsided the same evening. Proud of myself for that. This morning I reviewed the rest of the session and was able to sit down and play a couple more sessions the day after. Felt relatively normal. Good perspective. Good reminder to batten down the hatches and focus on what I can control. Also proud of that.

    I encountered some insane villains this month. A few, all with similar styles, over 200-300 hand samples, which consisted of 3betting 40-60% of hands, never folding to a 4bet, 5bet, whatever and then never missing any flop, turn, or river. At one point one of them had amassed a 2,500bb stack.

    I’m normally immune to someone else’s variance / don't comment but this was one of the most absurd events I’ve ever seen. It just kept happening over and over and over and kind of blew my mind in terms of what I thought was possible in terms of rungood. I saw it happen over multiple days with similar styled opponents. Was pretty wild. I tangled with one of them and lost a poorly played (by both of us lol) 800bb pot, which was definitely the largest of the month.







    October 2023 Goals Recap

    I know it could be worse but this was about as miserable a month as I could have asked for. Still hemorrhaging money in non-sd spots. saw a ton of leaks when i reviewed today. If I ran like i do at 200PLO at 500PLO i would be done with this game and moving onto something else. bless.

    Quote:
    October 2023 Goals
    • Play 20k hands
    • Review 100% of hands
    • When / if I start feeling the rage: focus on feeling the feeling and letting it pass before I make any decision. Do this at least 3 times
    • Journal about my experience feeling the feelings
    • Didn’t hit 20k hands, but got close despite a lot of traveling this month.
    • I did review 100% of my hands or very close to it.
    • Journaled around 5 times this month, not including this diary.
    • Mostly didn’t tilt. But did see some glaring blunders that were hopefully tilt as they were definitely not the best implementation of my PLO strategy.

    Last edited by grass elephant; 11-01-2023 at 08:34 PM.
    Deeper and deeper: Down 75 buyins, still chasing the PLO dream Quote
    11-07-2023 , 01:40 PM
    New month. Same as the last month. And the one before it. And the one before that.

    Hand 86



    Hand 87



    Hand 88



    Hand 89



    Hand 90



    Hand 91



    Hand 92
    Casual 800bb pot going the other way

    Spoiler:

    Villain was playing quite wild. Over 300 hands they had 3bet 40% of hands. I honestly thought I would get called by worse a fair amount of time on the river. Idk if villain ever folds any 2pair or sets. All said flop is probably an easy fold vs most people, but villain had shut down so i think we get to X/X turn and river a good amount of the time.


    Hand 93

    Spoiler:

    Ez game
    Deeper and deeper: Down 75 buyins, still chasing the PLO dream Quote
    11-07-2023 , 01:42 PM
    November 2023 Goals:
    • Play 20k hands
    • Review 100% of hands
    • Find 5 things i can do to improve the redline
    • When / if I start feeling the rage: focus on feeling the feeling and letting it pass before I make any decision.
    • Journal 5 times about how poker makes me feel

    I think my strategy of trying to develop heuristics is a good one. I could definitely improve the heuristics themselves, but just writing them out has increased a ton of sticking power.

    I keep having this weird sensation from studying where I learn something, feel like I understand it, then maybe forget some of it, and go back to study it later and have a newfound, dare I say deeper, understanding of the concept. Definitely seeing/conceptualizing things I didn’t see the first time around. I think this phenomena is well documented in learning theory
    Deeper and deeper: Down 75 buyins, still chasing the PLO dream Quote
    11-08-2023 , 10:49 PM
    did yall know that sometimes you can bet and the opponent will fold. it doesn't even matter what's in your hand. they just fold. thanks for coming to my ted talk

    in other news i finagled my way into a home game. blinds were .25/.50 but uncapped buyin. so i proceeded to run it up. i think i bought in for 500. ended up playing HU against a fearless opponent until 5am when the game finally broke / i busted him. i haven't played that late in years. reminded me of the glory days back in 2007

    did snag a cool screenshot:


    Last edited by grass elephant; 11-08-2023 at 10:54 PM.
    Deeper and deeper: Down 75 buyins, still chasing the PLO dream Quote
    11-24-2023 , 03:29 PM
    It’s almost December and I have not put in a ton of volume. I had some really tilty and ragey sessions online at the end of last month/beginning of this one. It’s a good reminder of the ever present risks of not keeping myself in check. Just like speeding through a stop sign in a car, I can also speed through the emotional checks and balances I’ve developed. All of the emotional resiliency or management techniques or whatever you want to call them in the world won’t do a thing if you don’t use them. Even though I’m not proud of those sessions, I learned from them and have a good reminder to not let myself get carried away emotionally. It all starts with the slightest thing, maybe a comment I’ll make to myself verbally or in my head, and from that first crack the whole dam can break and I’m a monkey again. Anywho, the break from poker was nice.

    I was able to play two live PLO sessions this month which were awesome. I haven’t played live in ages so the novelty is still there and It’s fun even if I’m just getting slaughtered. Saw a ton of opportunities for $, even from the regs/pros. Would love to make this a regular thing but doubt my social life/fiance will allow that. And it’s over an hour away which makes it really annoying, especially driving home at 4am.

    I include the commute to the casino as part of my live session time results. Some results:

    Ignition online: 6.5k hands/24hrs for -141

    Live session 1: 6hrs, in 3000 out 2330 for -670 (PLO)
    Live session 2: 3.25hrs, in 600, out 1089 for +489 (NLH while waiting for game)
    Live session 3: 6.82hrs, in 1089 out 1942 for +853 (PLO)

    Online home game 1: 8-10hrs, for +1400 (didn’t track this well)
    Online home game 2: 6ishhrs for +600 (didn’t track this well)
    Deeper and deeper: Down 75 buyins, still chasing the PLO dream Quote
    11-27-2023 , 01:23 PM
    While driving to play live the other day, I found myself searching for principles I could ground myself in to kind of prevent pre-tilt, but also get me excited for the session ahead. It’s hokey but it works for me:

    Quote:
    Win or lose, this session does not determine my happiness or my self worth.
    The results of this session do not threaten me in any way.
    Win or lose, I will still have a roof over my head, I won’t go hungry if I lose, I won’t be able to retire if I win, and my friends and family will still love me.
    I am grounded in the things that I can control, and I am at peace with the things I cannot control.
    Of course if I was playing with my last $1000 none of the above would be true. But playing within one’s bankroll is arguably the single most important variable to long term success.
    Deeper and deeper: Down 75 buyins, still chasing the PLO dream Quote
    11-29-2023 , 03:12 PM
    One of my goals for November was to find Find 5 things I can do to improve the redline:

    1. Not enough OOP leads in 3bet pots. There are lots of dynamic K-hi / K-hi w/ 2 broadway textures that are ripe for OOP leads. I’ve certainly been way too passive in most of these spots, which can lead to getting bluffed a lot, but more importantly giving up way too much equity and making it easier for my opponents. The computer likes to lead range here 25% of the time, with the range composed of lots of NFB, NFD, high FD w/ backup, and sets w/ out NFD

    Here’s a good example:




    2. Too many cbets post flop in 3bet pots. In the example below, the computer is almost pure check with NFD + PP > JJ. W/ NFD + 66-88, computer starts to like B50 more. I think this is because of the interaction with the mid straight cards, and the likelihood we can keep betting when a straight card comes in. In-game I just saw NFD and didn’t even consider X back.



    3. Too many bets with naked blockers. I definitely get carried away with just having the nut blockers. It feels like it happens so rarely, so when it comes up I’m eager to bet. That’s obviously a mental game leak. The computer likes to start betting when it has a pair or some other additional removal/equity to go with it. In the hand below that would be like Q/9 w/ JJ



    4. Too much X/R without thinking. Top set is not always an auto XR, maybe even especially on rainbow straight boards. In fact, we’re almost pure calling on this board except when we have OESD + really good backup like any 2 pair. Even the wrap hand class needs support before it likes to XR. I think one of the really important takeaways to consider is how our handclass draws to or blocks the nuts.



    5. Cbetting as SB BvB.
    I’ve known for a couple of months that I was cbetting waaaaaaay too much from the SB BvB. Awareness is always a good first step, but I’m obviously still not calibrated correctly. Computer likes to cbet range around 20% of the time on a similar board, 8s4h3h. It’s hard to get a good sense of all of the hands that cbet, but it looks like NFD/NFB is a decent chunk, with some weaker NFB and stronger NFD going for the X/R.



    ______________________________________

    Going through more non-SD spots has revealed to me there's just as many opportunities for improvement as there are hands played. Onward!

    Last edited by grass elephant; 11-29-2023 at 03:20 PM.
    Deeper and deeper: Down 75 buyins, still chasing the PLO dream Quote
    11-29-2023 , 07:39 PM
    The hand you posted is sketchy yes, but AJJ2 is also at bottom of villains range and u x riv. I wouldn’t be too concerned. And folded hearts would be more of a reason to fold on turn if they were card sharing.
    Deeper and deeper: Down 75 buyins, still chasing the PLO dream Quote
    11-30-2023 , 12:54 PM
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by KnoxKnoxJoke
    The hand you posted is sketchy yes, but AJJ2 is also at bottom of villains range and u x riv. I wouldn’t be too concerned. And folded hearts would be more of a reason to fold on turn if they were card sharing.
    This is the hand. I deleted because i thought i misread it as AJ22, but it's AJJ2. Cards accounted for: Qd, Ah, 8h, 6h.

    I kind of agree but if they know the hearts and a Q are gone, then the turn bet actually gives them good odds for a river bluff. But to play devil's advocate, there's no 5 accounted for which maybe makes cheating even less likely.

    There's so much genuinely awful -EV play at these stakes from literally everyone, it's hard to disambiguate the cheating from people being bad.

    Quote:
    Ignition Hand #4550586272 TBL#30829078 OMAHA Pot Limit - 2023-11-04 13:55:48
    Table Info: Version: 1, Type: Ignition, Stakes: $1-$2
    Seat 1: Small Blind [ME] ($193 in chips)
    Seat 2: Big Blind ($484.27 in chips)
    Seat 5: UTG ($245.48 in chips)
    Seat 6: Dealer ($420.46 in chips)
    Dealer : Set dealer [6]
    Player Info: Seat2: P2-592951d8ea8eb5cf6871ad863af46b02, Seat5: P5-62d11675057c0ad17185f64f6f80c102, Seat6: P6-d58149fdeabcced8fe6aff279fd43e03
    Small Blind [ME] : Small Blind $1
    Big Blind : Big blind $2
    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Small Blind [ME] : Card dealt to a spot [8s 6c 8c 6s]
    Big Blind : Card dealt to a spot [6h 4d 8h Ac]
    UTG : Card dealt to a spot [Qd 4s Ah 3s]
    Dealer : Card dealt to a spot [2s Jc As Js]
    UTG : Folds
    Dealer : Raises $7 to $7
    Small Blind [ME] : Raises $22 to $23
    Big Blind : Folds
    Dealer : Calls $16
    *** FLOP *** [5h 5c Qh]
    Small Blind [ME] : Bets $18.80
    Dealer : Calls $18.80
    *** TURN *** [5h 5c Qh] [7d]
    Small Blind [ME] : Bets $30
    Dealer : Calls $30
    *** RIVER *** [5h 5c Qh 7d] [2h]
    Small Blind [ME] : Checks
    Dealer : Bets $142.60
    Small Blind [ME] : Folds
    Dealer : Return uncalled portion of bet $142.60
    Dealer : Does not show [2s Jc As Js] (Two pair)
    Dealer : Hand result $142.60
    *** SUMMARY ***
    Total Pot($145.60)
    Board [5h 5c Qh 7d 2h]
    Seat+1: Small Blind Folded on the RIVER
    Seat+2: Big Blind Folded before the FLOP
    Seat+5: UTG Folded before the FLOP
    Seat+6: Dealer $142.60 [Does not show]

    Last edited by grass elephant; 11-30-2023 at 01:06 PM.
    Deeper and deeper: Down 75 buyins, still chasing the PLO dream Quote

          
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