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Winrates, bankrolls, and finances Winrates, bankrolls, and finances
View Poll Results: What is your Win Rate in terms of BB per Housr
Less than 0 (losing)
5 6.41%
0-2.5
0 0%
2.5-5
6 7.69%
5-7.5
8 10.26%
7.5-10
15 19.23%
10+
26 33.33%
Not enough sample size/I don't know
18 23.08%

04-03-2018 , 12:02 PM
I don't mean this offensively, but there's a big difference of being the best/feared as a 100/200nl endboss compared to a 3/5 crusher.

The same can be said to the company at the table. I've found in bigger games there's significantly more people I actually want to be around that make it a pleasant experience.
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04-03-2018 , 01:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by YGOchamp
I don't mean this offensively, but there's a big difference of being the best/feared as a 100/200nl endboss compared to a 3/5 crusher.

The same can be said to the company at the table. I've found in bigger games there's significantly more people I actually want to be around that make it a pleasant experience.
O for sure, I'm definitely not even close to being able to compete at the higher levels for many reasons (bankroll, lack of passion, lack of desire to think about numbers all day, not wanting to live any more high variance then I have to). It's not even in my realm of comprehension how much work these guys put in to study the math behind the game. Beyond 5/T/20, the stress is a bit too much for my little sensitive body to handle. I wouldn't want that energy in my life.

I just don't really see the point in being the best at poker any more. I used to want to be the best player in the world but I don't see the point in it now. It's not fulfilling. The stress from living a high variance life leads to sickness and disease. Having adrenaline and cortisol and testosterone flowing endlessly through the body leads to myriad mental, emotional, and physical issues.

I used to idolize the great players. Now, I look at them and feel real pity. The real smart ones get out of the game when they've made their money and put it into real estate, business, stocks, etc. They realize the real game is money, and not poker. And actually the real game is just pussy. Everything we do as men is subconsciously connected to pussy. Once we can get pussy and realize we don't need millions to prove our worth to anyone, the allure of the poker dream just starts fading. Poker is just seen for what it is -- an intellectual and psychological war. Why go to war when you can get pussy? I go to war to print money, but I'm not happy about having to crush souls to do it. But it's the world we live in.

"100/200nl endboss" -- if that's somebody's main goal in life, I feel really bad for them. Is there any satisfaction once you become an "endboss"? I'd rather live a really simple life in nature with few possessions. I'd rather spend time swimming in the ocean, and dancing, and understanding/gaming women, and having a sense of purpose beyond myself, being part of something whole like we've always been, but just forgot. Look at the faces of the endbosses, the guys who have put their blood, sweat, and tears into the game, and know nothing else. They aren't genuinely happy faces for the most part. Their lives are a struggle, they're constantly in conflict, their edge is never enough. I'd rather not be in hyper-competitive environments if I don't need to.

If you need examples, listen to what some of the pros say. Viffer said something like, "I would trade my entire net worth for a chance at a normal life." Look at Dan Colman's face after he wins that huge tournament. It's sadness. Afterwards, people shame him for not being happy and then he says poker is a dark game, and everybody goes after him like he's a criminal. This is what honesty gets you in this game.

There's a Taoist saying that says something like "when you get to the top, that's the time to cry and feel sad." There's no happiness in climbing to the top; there's only one way to go. And once you get to the top in our capitalist society, you just get more predators chasing after you and asking you to sell your soul for a few more pieces of paper, a little bit of fame, and pussy. In the poker world, once you become somewhat famous, you just get to sponsor casinos and online sites, and get to sit in rooms where they advertise for vapes and alcohol and sports to keep people distracted and numb and passionate about the most selfish things. Sports take over God as the religion of the land. Violence is encouraged and peace is laughed at. People try to find purpose in supporting a team, like somehow the drama of the team's ups and downs gives them a sense of being part of something bigger and gives them something to talk about. Poker pros get to be shills, encouraging more amateurs to join the game because the ones that entered already have mostly gone broke or have stopped playing. You have to give off the facade that living the fast life and being flush with cash and buying cars and houses and going to parties and gambling for a living is the best type of life. You have to live a lie.

The happiest people I know are monks who literally have nothing. They are beggars. But the smiles and the light radiating from their being is something beyond this world.

"Climbing the stakes" is really unattractive to me now. Sure, I'll play bigger games if I feel like I have an edge, but I don't play them to somehow fill a hole inside me that thinks if I'm playing for bigger amounts, I must be a better player or a better human being. I used to think this way. But after spending many years mostly away from the game and living a relatively healthy lifestyle for quite little money, I see poker players, especially the grinders, and just feel sad for them. Losing themselves in drugs, alcohol, addictions. Feeling really empty, but having to act all tough and big. I feel sad for myself sometimes that this is the game I got good at.

Psychedelics, traveling, and meditation have really changed my views on money and capitalism and the United States and media. The system we're in warps our priorities. We chase pieces of paper and numbers of the screen to fill the lack of self-esteem we have. We're used as cogs in the machine and we want to escape the machine, but it's nearly impossible to escape without manipulating the machine to churn out pieces of paper and numbers on the screen.

Still, poker is my main source of income so I have many moral dilemmas. I'm not a perfect human. I don't have life figured out. But all I know is getting really good at poker to make myself feel good about myself is no longer a priority.

Last edited by spirit123; 04-03-2018 at 01:44 PM.
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04-03-2018 , 01:31 PM
Man, spirit123 dropping some real knowledge in here today. Gl to you and your journey.
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04-03-2018 , 01:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by spirit123
Now, this isn't to say there aren't a few cool people that play poker in the casino. Maybe 1 out of 15 or 20 are cool people. Maybe military or ex-military. Maybe successful retired businessperson. Maybe a grandma who just loves cards and never bluffs. Maybe a doctor who wants to compete. Maybe an older guy just getting into the game and loves to see flops and gamble, but doesn't do it to make money primarily. Those are cool people.
So it's impossible to be "cool" if you're playing for profit?

Edit: nvm it's a level.

Quote:
Originally Posted by spirit123

They realize the real game is money, and not poker. And actually the real game is just pussy. Everything we do as men is subconsciously connected to pussy. Once we can get pussy and realize we don't need millions to prove our worth to anyone, the allure of the poker dream just starts fading. Poker is just seen for what it is -- an intellectual and psychological war. Why go to war when you can get pussy? I go to war to print money, but I'm not happy about having to crush souls to do it. But it's the world we live in.
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04-03-2018 , 02:01 PM
where the **** do you live I need a hookup on these psychedelics you speak of.
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04-03-2018 , 03:13 PM
Spirit123, that was an incredible last post
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04-03-2018 , 03:20 PM
Thank you for your insight, Spirit123. I have had the same thoughts and feelings over the last several years.
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04-03-2018 , 05:39 PM
Enough derail. spirit123, take it to your PG&C please. Let's keep this thread focused on winrates, bankrolls, and finances.

Several posts deleted that were not even tangentially related to the subject of this thread.
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04-03-2018 , 05:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garick
Enough derail. spirit123, take it to your PG&C please. Let's keep this thread focused on winrates, bankrolls, and finances.

Several posts deleted that were not even tangentially related to the subject of this thread.
Got carried away. Sorry.
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04-03-2018 , 06:01 PM
Back to winrate stuff.....

So if I win 12BB/hr at 1/2 150BB cap what should I expect at 2/5 200BB cap? My guess... 8ish BB/hr?

And how large should my roll be to move up? I'm thinking 20k minimum preferably 25k.
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04-03-2018 , 06:29 PM
Try some 100BB BI shots and get a feel for how the game plays.

FWIW, I've played the 2/5 game in your locale, but no the 1/2. The 2/5 seemed good. Not super high variance, but kinda chasy like a less extreme version of 1/2. A few wanna be pros that write their spewiness off to variance, imo.
Winrates, bankrolls, and finances Quote
04-03-2018 , 06:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garick
Try some 100BB BI shots and get a feel for how the game plays.

FWIW, I've played the 2/5 game in your locale, but no the 1/2. The 2/5 seemed good. Not super high variance, but kinda chasy like a less extreme version of 1/2. A few wanna be pros that write their spewiness off to variance, imo.
I played about 100 hours of 2/5 (always bought in 1k) but moved down after a downswing because I was underrolled. Hard to conclude much empirically over that short period, but I feel like the games weren't a lot tougher than the 1/2. Biggest difference was more players who appeared to be winning players, but probably still just average 1 per table. Still lots of recreational players. Less depressing atmosphere than 1/2. More opportunities for barreling and bluffs generally but still mostly a value game. Not nearly as much of the short stack jam all in by the flop nonsense.

I think I have a pretty good feel for it. I just don't want to have to drop back to 1/2 again to rebuild my roll. Think 20k is enough to minimize risk of ruin? Or 25k or more?

And FWIW it's probably more "risk of dropping down" than "risk of ruin". If I did drop below 10k I would probably go back to 1/2 to grind it back up but I'm hoping to move up and stay there.
Winrates, bankrolls, and finances Quote
04-04-2018 , 05:46 AM
It's all up to you Shai. Several times, I've started out with 5-6k (cash advances) rolls playing 3/5 and have built it up relatively smoothly each time.

There's no perfect bankroll rule. It's just what you are comfortable with. Nobody can predict how well/bad you will run.

At 3/5 you're just going to run into more good thinking players who know how to exploit weaknesses and create profitable situations for themselves in position. The fishy ones are still very fishy. They just have more money to give away and sometimes, they do it faster.

I say, Go for it! When the lineup looks good, just take your cash and plop it down and trust in your skill and instinct. Play tight.

What's wrong with switching between the two games? Moving up doesn't mean you have to stay there for good...you can pick and choose. You're already playing 1/2 so what's with not wanting to play it once you start playing some 3/5? It can be more fluid than you think.

Last edited by spirit123; 04-04-2018 at 05:58 AM.
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04-04-2018 , 08:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shai Hulud
Back to winrate stuff.....

So if I win 12BB/hr at 1/2 150BB cap what should I expect at 2/5 200BB cap? My guess... 8ish BB/hr?

And how large should my roll be to move up? I'm thinking 20k minimum preferably 25k.
Congrats on the 12 bbs/hr. If that sample is large enough and your $2/$5 NL player pool is favorable, I would transition over using your current roll. As others have said, nothing wrong with dropping back, even just to tighten loose screws.

Depends on the sample size and individual player experience, but I don’t think there is always an hourly correlation when moving up in stakes. Playing with better opponents provides the opportunity of continued learning and developing your game. Personally, my hourly (bbs/hr) increased over a larger sample than $1/$2 NL.

GL!
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04-04-2018 , 08:32 AM
Yah seeing the word expect makes me cringe.

Give it a shot, but don’t expect anything.
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04-04-2018 , 09:55 AM
Spirit123,

You sound like you are 25 years old and just realized that life is a grind. News flash whatever you do for work (corporate, poker, retail) will suck sometimes. It is all what you make of what you have and how you look at things. There can be joy in any situation and there can be sorrow as well. You don’t need drugs or meditation to figure that out. You are not enlightened. Congrats on winning some money a few times and good luck in the future. To your comments about life is about “getting pussy” lol now I’m wondering if you are more like 16 years old.
Winrates, bankrolls, and finances Quote
04-04-2018 , 10:45 AM
Results @1/2:

1294 hrs
Profit: $31,850
$/hr : $24.61

My last 1015 hours (cherry picking from best spot) I'm at $29/hr. Casinos here are about to combine poker rooms so that the player pool isnt as sparse, which should be awesome. Looking forward to jumping into the 2/5 games that should start running more regularly.
Winrates, bankrolls, and finances Quote
04-04-2018 , 11:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by niceguy22
Results @1/2:

1294 hrs
Profit: $31,850
$/hr : $24.61

My last 1015 hours (cherry picking from best spot) I'm at $29/hr. Casinos here are about to combine poker rooms so that the player pool isnt as sparse, which should be awesome. Looking forward to jumping into the 2/5 games that should start running more regularly.
nice stuff man. you are definitely thinking about the game in the right way so I am sure you will do just fine with the transition to 2/5. keep crushing
Winrates, bankrolls, and finances Quote
04-04-2018 , 12:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by niceguy22
Results @1/2:

1294 hrs
Profit: $31,850
$/hr : $24.61

My last 1015 hours (cherry picking from best spot) I'm at $29/hr. Casinos here are about to combine poker rooms so that the player pool isnt as sparse, which should be awesome. Looking forward to jumping into the 2/5 games that should start running more regularly.
Nice dude! Keep up the great work. Really happy for your success.
Winrates, bankrolls, and finances Quote
04-04-2018 , 12:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryGrill
Spirit123,

You sound like you are 25 years old and just realized that life is a grind. News flash whatever you do for work (corporate, poker, retail) will suck sometimes. It is all what you make of what you have and how you look at things. There can be joy in any situation and there can be sorrow as well. You don’t need drugs or meditation to figure that out. You are not enlightened. Congrats on winning some money a few times and good luck in the future. To your comments about life is about “getting pussy” lol now I’m wondering if you are more like 16 years old.
Thanks for the reminder!

I'm a bit older than you think. And I'm as far from enlightened as a human can be.

I guess I've been lucky because I grind for short bits, then relax for long stretches at a time. It's just the way I like to live. Grinding for years would make my head explode.

Just gotta keep that win rate up and live frugally so there's no need to grind as much.
Winrates, bankrolls, and finances Quote
04-04-2018 , 12:54 PM
Now that March is in the books ...

Jan: -$1,560 over 102.5 hours
Feb: -$1,445 over 38.7 hours
Mar: +$1611.25 over 59.3 hours

That's including all the ******ed $1/2 PLO in my HG. Funny what a couple of $1000 pots going a particular way does. Ho-ray for variance turning around?
Winrates, bankrolls, and finances Quote
04-04-2018 , 04:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by spirit123
It's all up to you Shai. Several times, I've started out with 5-6k (cash advances) rolls playing 3/5 and have built it up relatively smoothly each time.

There's no perfect bankroll rule. It's just what you are comfortable with. Nobody can predict how well/bad you will run.

At 3/5 you're just going to run into more good thinking players who know how to exploit weaknesses and create profitable situations for themselves in position. The fishy ones are still very fishy. They just have more money to give away and sometimes, they do it faster.

I say, Go for it! When the lineup looks good, just take your cash and plop it down and trust in your skill and instinct. Play tight.

What's wrong with switching between the two games? Moving up doesn't mean you have to stay there for good...you can pick and choose. You're already playing 1/2 so what's with not wanting to play it once you start playing some 3/5? It can be more fluid than you think.
Thanks for the input. As far as switching back and forth I guess I feel like 1/2 and 2/5 are pretty different games and that I'm better off focusing on adjusting to 2/5 completely. Maybe this isn't the case. Where I live there are enough 2/5 games to play that full time so if my expectation in $/hr is higher at 2/5 (which it probably is but I can't say empirically), aside from bankroll considerations I don't know why I would need to play both.

I tried 5/T one night. Way underrolled but games looked good. Ran super bad. I mean the biggest pot I lost I flopped the nut straight, my opponent 3 bet jams the turn and I snap call and he rivers a BDFD. Oh well. I just want to be as immune as possible to swings eating my bankroll before switching back to 2/5 let alone 5/T.

@johnnyBuz - I meant "what should I expect" as in mathematical expectation, not the general use of the word, which I guess was not clear. Trust me I know the results are highly highly random over short to medium periods.

I figured a lot of people ITT have made the jump from solidly beating 1/2 to 2/5 and was just wondering what the general drop in winrate looks like, fully aware some may hit their ceiling at 1/2.
Winrates, bankrolls, and finances Quote
04-04-2018 , 09:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by niceguy22
Results @1/2:

1294 hrs
Profit: $31,850
$/hr : $24.61

My last 1015 hours (cherry picking from best spot) I'm at $29/hr. Casinos here are about to combine poker rooms so that the player pool isnt as sparse, which should be awesome. Looking forward to jumping into the 2/5 games that should start running more regularly.
Well played.
Winrates, bankrolls, and finances Quote
04-05-2018 , 08:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by niceguy22
Results @1/2:

1294 hrs
Profit: $31,850
$/hr : $24.61

My last 1015 hours (cherry picking from best spot) I'm at $29/hr. Casinos here are about to combine poker rooms so that the player pool isnt as sparse, which should be awesome. Looking forward to jumping into the 2/5 games that should start running more regularly.
Solid.
Winrates, bankrolls, and finances Quote
04-07-2018 , 11:09 AM
Results at 3/5:

173 hours
+17661
$101.69/hour

3/16: 8:00 -1227
3/17: 13:11 +4898
3/18: 7:22 -426
3/20: 13:20 +1251
3/21: 3:25 +2445
3/22: 9:48 -715
3/23: 12:21 +192
3/24: 9:40 +1057
3/25: 9:07 +250
3/26: 3:28 +2241
3/27: 9:19 -2598
3/28: 13:38 +2893
3/30: 11:26 +348
3/31: 7:44 -788
4/2: 11:50 +1320
4/3: 8:41 +1350
4/4: 10:00 +739
4/5: 8:01 +1926
4/7: 4:13 +2505

Other than that, I'm -$370 in other games in ~3 hour total.

My instincts have been getting noticeably sharper during the last few sessions. Running hot helps too. Protecting stacks a bit better. Still working on some bet-sizing stuff and getting sloppy when I get bored or start playing too many hands.

Looking to start playing some 5/T probably within 2-3 weeks out in LA.

Last edited by spirit123; 04-07-2018 at 11:16 AM.
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