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Old 04-02-2018, 09:33 PM   #21301
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by meale View Post
I had no issues playing my 40 hours a week for the 8 months or so I was playing live full time. I've since found greener pastures playing online - which is much much tougher to grind 40 hours a week on.

The other factor is whether you plan on paying tax on that annual $60k or not.
you on one of the Chinese apps?
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Old 04-02-2018, 09:49 PM   #21302
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Was the opposite for me. The longer I played, the more my relationships with regs, dealers, floor etc developed. It became a lot like hanging out with friends rather than a painful grind.

Also there are plenty of jobs where you don't feel like you're directly contributing to something. I think happiness while at work is much more important than what it is yours contributing to.
Pretty much how I feel, but I think it has a lot to do with where you play and the general demeanor of the people who frequent your local room(s).
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Old 04-02-2018, 10:24 PM   #21303
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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you on one of the Chinese apps?
Yes, PM if you wanna discuss more.

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Pretty much how I feel, but I think it has a lot to do with where you play and the general demeanor of the people who frequent your local room(s).
Yeah 100%. My room is very well catered to recs and the homegames are really fun.
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Old 04-02-2018, 11:30 PM   #21304
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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I’m snap taking the under on a random aspiring pro getting in 2k hours in a year.
It’s definitely not easy. I’m on pace for 1600 this year but I also have a 1-1.5 hour commute each way. Once I live closer in a few months I’m pretty sure I’ll be on pace to average 2k.

I’m pretty strict about how I count time playing. I don’t count 1-1.5 hours each session I spend taking walk breaks, meal break, waiting for a table etc.
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Old 04-03-2018, 01:22 AM   #21305
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Honestly, this is my biggest issue when I go through periods where I'm playing a lot. There's something about the environment where I tend to feel like I'm not making any sort of contribution to society (and I'm not), also seeing the negativity of many of the people around takes it's toll.

Some businesses have a real impact by providing value to customers, none of that happens in poker.

The mental aspect and what you describe above would really be the most difficult part for me.
Yep, especially if you've sat vipassana, you know it's not a long term solution. It's just fast money.
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Old 04-03-2018, 09:41 AM   #21306
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

My white collar job is soul crushing but I can't quit, I make too much money. Above a minimal baseline level of competence, corporate success basically requires being a terrible person. To ascend to the top of large organizations you have to play politics, be strategic and routinely **** over your colleagues. It's terrible.

Now, that said, hang around the casino long enough and it will crush your soul too. For different reasons, obviously.

Both require balance and discipline to avoid misery. Exercise and healthy eating have really helped me.
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Old 04-03-2018, 09:46 AM   #21307
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Why it for different reasons?

Poker also has playing politics, being strategic, and ****ing over your colleagues (which in this case are more-so your competitors but not in the same context).
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Old 04-03-2018, 10:16 AM   #21308
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Why it for different reasons?

Poker also has playing politics, being strategic, and ****ing over your colleagues (which in this case are more-so your competitors but not in the same context).
I've spent many thousands of hours in casinos and other underground poker rooms.

In general, casinos are toxic predatory often smoke-filled environments where people come to fight. Slimy, grimy, dishonest, parasitic is the general vibe in the poker room. Casino owners want you to be addicted and distracted. They want to provide the unlimited dopamine hits we think we want. Superficial sensory pleasure is the casino's product.

Lots of casino people are addicted, unhealthy, and depressed. Many of them are running away from home issues. Lots of them lose money they cannot afford to lose. They gossip and back-stab non-stop.

I can see it in myself. I just spent a year getting into the best shape of my life, and in the 2+ weeks I've been playing poker, my mental and physical health have already taken a big hit. I'm getting into old habits again.

Now, this isn't to say there aren't a few cool people that play poker in the casino. Maybe 1 out of 15 or 20 are cool people. Maybe military or ex-military. Maybe successful retired businessperson. Maybe a grandma who just loves cards and never bluffs. Maybe a doctor who wants to compete. Maybe an older guy just getting into the game and loves to see flops and gamble, but doesn't do it to make money primarily. Those are cool people.

I avoid socializing or being friends with anybody who makes poker a central pillar of their lives or thinks poker is the greatest game ever. I avoid poker pros outside of some strategy talk.

I'm one of the biggest winners in the room. But it doesn't lead to any happiness. People don't somehow like you better because you win. They like you less. They want to destroy your emotions and self-esteem. They're not happy for you when you win a pot.

I won't spend any more time than I have to in these environments. It's in and out for me. Make my cash and say, "good riddance."
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Old 04-03-2018, 10:37 AM   #21309
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Man, you're depressing.
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Old 04-03-2018, 10:54 AM   #21310
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The truth is depressing.
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Old 04-03-2018, 11:05 AM   #21311
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Also there are plenty of jobs where you don't feel like you're directly contributing to something. I think happiness while at work is much more important than what it is yours contributing to.

Most of the jobs I have had paid well but I was just pushing paper. Not contributing anything.
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Old 04-03-2018, 11:54 AM   #21312
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Man, you're depressing.
The reality of this world can depress us if we've been programmed to think it's all rainbows and unicorns.

Men especially have to face the existential angst of the utter purposelessness of their existence. Some of the most creative artists, intellectuals, musicians, etc. have depressive tendencies. They realize society and capitalism doesn't want them to be creative for the benefit of human beings. The system wants to use these people's creativity and brilliance to enforce the status quo and keep people numb and drowning in distractions.

I've faced several bouts of severe depression that lasted for months at a time. It's tough to wake up to reality and get our dreams of fairy tales shattered over and over. I admit, I'm not in the best mental shape now. Living in the United States and spending lots of time in casinos crushes the spirit.

My goals drive me to be able to withstand the grind. Support my parents. Save up cash and be able to travel for a few years without thinking about money much.

I don't care if people don't agree with me. I've experienced what I've experienced. I've made lots of money playing poker and I know what it's like the be the most feared player in player pools of 300-400. It's not what it's made out to be. There's no true happiness to be had with success in poker as an end. For me, success in poker is just a means to an end to live a beautiful life outside of poker.
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Old 04-03-2018, 12:02 PM   #21313
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I don't mean this offensively, but there's a big difference of being the best/feared as a 100/200nl endboss compared to a 3/5 crusher.

The same can be said to the company at the table. I've found in bigger games there's significantly more people I actually want to be around that make it a pleasant experience.
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Old 04-03-2018, 01:22 PM   #21314
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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I don't mean this offensively, but there's a big difference of being the best/feared as a 100/200nl endboss compared to a 3/5 crusher.

The same can be said to the company at the table. I've found in bigger games there's significantly more people I actually want to be around that make it a pleasant experience.
O for sure, I'm definitely not even close to being able to compete at the higher levels for many reasons (bankroll, lack of passion, lack of desire to think about numbers all day, not wanting to live any more high variance then I have to). It's not even in my realm of comprehension how much work these guys put in to study the math behind the game. Beyond 5/T/20, the stress is a bit too much for my little sensitive body to handle. I wouldn't want that energy in my life.

I just don't really see the point in being the best at poker any more. I used to want to be the best player in the world but I don't see the point in it now. It's not fulfilling. The stress from living a high variance life leads to sickness and disease. Having adrenaline and cortisol and testosterone flowing endlessly through the body leads to myriad mental, emotional, and physical issues.

I used to idolize the great players. Now, I look at them and feel real pity. The real smart ones get out of the game when they've made their money and put it into real estate, business, stocks, etc. They realize the real game is money, and not poker. And actually the real game is just pussy. Everything we do as men is subconsciously connected to pussy. Once we can get pussy and realize we don't need millions to prove our worth to anyone, the allure of the poker dream just starts fading. Poker is just seen for what it is -- an intellectual and psychological war. Why go to war when you can get pussy? I go to war to print money, but I'm not happy about having to crush souls to do it. But it's the world we live in.

"100/200nl endboss" -- if that's somebody's main goal in life, I feel really bad for them. Is there any satisfaction once you become an "endboss"? I'd rather live a really simple life in nature with few possessions. I'd rather spend time swimming in the ocean, and dancing, and understanding/gaming women, and having a sense of purpose beyond myself, being part of something whole like we've always been, but just forgot. Look at the faces of the endbosses, the guys who have put their blood, sweat, and tears into the game, and know nothing else. They aren't genuinely happy faces for the most part. Their lives are a struggle, they're constantly in conflict, their edge is never enough. I'd rather not be in hyper-competitive environments if I don't need to.

If you need examples, listen to what some of the pros say. Viffer said something like, "I would trade my entire net worth for a chance at a normal life." Look at Dan Colman's face after he wins that huge tournament. It's sadness. Afterwards, people shame him for not being happy and then he says poker is a dark game, and everybody goes after him like he's a criminal. This is what honesty gets you in this game.

There's a Taoist saying that says something like "when you get to the top, that's the time to cry and feel sad." There's no happiness in climbing to the top; there's only one way to go. And once you get to the top in our capitalist society, you just get more predators chasing after you and asking you to sell your soul for a few more pieces of paper, a little bit of fame, and pussy. In the poker world, once you become somewhat famous, you just get to sponsor casinos and online sites, and get to sit in rooms where they advertise for vapes and alcohol and sports to keep people distracted and numb and passionate about the most selfish things. Sports take over God as the religion of the land. Violence is encouraged and peace is laughed at. People try to find purpose in supporting a team, like somehow the drama of the team's ups and downs gives them a sense of being part of something bigger and gives them something to talk about. Poker pros get to be shills, encouraging more amateurs to join the game because the ones that entered already have mostly gone broke or have stopped playing. You have to give off the facade that living the fast life and being flush with cash and buying cars and houses and going to parties and gambling for a living is the best type of life. You have to live a lie.

The happiest people I know are monks who literally have nothing. They are beggars. But the smiles and the light radiating from their being is something beyond this world.

"Climbing the stakes" is really unattractive to me now. Sure, I'll play bigger games if I feel like I have an edge, but I don't play them to somehow fill a hole inside me that thinks if I'm playing for bigger amounts, I must be a better player or a better human being. I used to think this way. But after spending many years mostly away from the game and living a relatively healthy lifestyle for quite little money, I see poker players, especially the grinders, and just feel sad for them. Losing themselves in drugs, alcohol, addictions. Feeling really empty, but having to act all tough and big. I feel sad for myself sometimes that this is the game I got good at.

Psychedelics, traveling, and meditation have really changed my views on money and capitalism and the United States and media. The system we're in warps our priorities. We chase pieces of paper and numbers of the screen to fill the lack of self-esteem we have. We're used as cogs in the machine and we want to escape the machine, but it's nearly impossible to escape without manipulating the machine to churn out pieces of paper and numbers on the screen.

Still, poker is my main source of income so I have many moral dilemmas. I'm not a perfect human. I don't have life figured out. But all I know is getting really good at poker to make myself feel good about myself is no longer a priority.

Last edited by spirit123; 04-03-2018 at 01:44 PM.
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Old 04-03-2018, 01:31 PM   #21315
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Man, spirit123 dropping some real knowledge in here today. Gl to you and your journey.
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Old 04-03-2018, 01:39 PM   #21316
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Now, this isn't to say there aren't a few cool people that play poker in the casino. Maybe 1 out of 15 or 20 are cool people. Maybe military or ex-military. Maybe successful retired businessperson. Maybe a grandma who just loves cards and never bluffs. Maybe a doctor who wants to compete. Maybe an older guy just getting into the game and loves to see flops and gamble, but doesn't do it to make money primarily. Those are cool people.
So it's impossible to be "cool" if you're playing for profit?

Edit: nvm it's a level.

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They realize the real game is money, and not poker. And actually the real game is just pussy. Everything we do as men is subconsciously connected to pussy. Once we can get pussy and realize we don't need millions to prove our worth to anyone, the allure of the poker dream just starts fading. Poker is just seen for what it is -- an intellectual and psychological war. Why go to war when you can get pussy? I go to war to print money, but I'm not happy about having to crush souls to do it. But it's the world we live in.
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Old 04-03-2018, 02:01 PM   #21317
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where the **** do you live I need a hookup on these psychedelics you speak of.
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Old 04-03-2018, 03:13 PM   #21318
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Spirit123, that was an incredible last post
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Old 04-03-2018, 03:20 PM   #21319
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Thank you for your insight, Spirit123. I have had the same thoughts and feelings over the last several years.
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Old 04-03-2018, 05:39 PM   #21320
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Enough derail. spirit123, take it to your PG&C please. Let's keep this thread focused on winrates, bankrolls, and finances.

Several posts deleted that were not even tangentially related to the subject of this thread.
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Old 04-03-2018, 05:47 PM   #21321
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Enough derail. spirit123, take it to your PG&C please. Let's keep this thread focused on winrates, bankrolls, and finances.

Several posts deleted that were not even tangentially related to the subject of this thread.
Got carried away. Sorry.
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Old 04-03-2018, 06:01 PM   #21322
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Back to winrate stuff.....

So if I win 12BB/hr at 1/2 150BB cap what should I expect at 2/5 200BB cap? My guess... 8ish BB/hr?

And how large should my roll be to move up? I'm thinking 20k minimum preferably 25k.
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Old 04-03-2018, 06:29 PM   #21323
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Try some 100BB BI shots and get a feel for how the game plays.

FWIW, I've played the 2/5 game in your locale, but no the 1/2. The 2/5 seemed good. Not super high variance, but kinda chasy like a less extreme version of 1/2. A few wanna be pros that write their spewiness off to variance, imo.
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Old 04-03-2018, 06:44 PM   #21324
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Try some 100BB BI shots and get a feel for how the game plays.

FWIW, I've played the 2/5 game in your locale, but no the 1/2. The 2/5 seemed good. Not super high variance, but kinda chasy like a less extreme version of 1/2. A few wanna be pros that write their spewiness off to variance, imo.
I played about 100 hours of 2/5 (always bought in 1k) but moved down after a downswing because I was underrolled. Hard to conclude much empirically over that short period, but I feel like the games weren't a lot tougher than the 1/2. Biggest difference was more players who appeared to be winning players, but probably still just average 1 per table. Still lots of recreational players. Less depressing atmosphere than 1/2. More opportunities for barreling and bluffs generally but still mostly a value game. Not nearly as much of the short stack jam all in by the flop nonsense.

I think I have a pretty good feel for it. I just don't want to have to drop back to 1/2 again to rebuild my roll. Think 20k is enough to minimize risk of ruin? Or 25k or more?

And FWIW it's probably more "risk of dropping down" than "risk of ruin". If I did drop below 10k I would probably go back to 1/2 to grind it back up but I'm hoping to move up and stay there.
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Old 04-04-2018, 05:46 AM   #21325
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It's all up to you Shai. Several times, I've started out with 5-6k (cash advances) rolls playing 3/5 and have built it up relatively smoothly each time.

There's no perfect bankroll rule. It's just what you are comfortable with. Nobody can predict how well/bad you will run.

At 3/5 you're just going to run into more good thinking players who know how to exploit weaknesses and create profitable situations for themselves in position. The fishy ones are still very fishy. They just have more money to give away and sometimes, they do it faster.

I say, Go for it! When the lineup looks good, just take your cash and plop it down and trust in your skill and instinct. Play tight.

What's wrong with switching between the two games? Moving up doesn't mean you have to stay there for good...you can pick and choose. You're already playing 1/2 so what's with not wanting to play it once you start playing some 3/5? It can be more fluid than you think.

Last edited by spirit123; 04-04-2018 at 05:58 AM.
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