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Old 08-04-2017, 05:01 PM   #19476
zoltan
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by LordRiverRat View Post
What does having kids have to do with poker? That's a time sink regardless of whether you play poker or work a "real" job. I didn't say other jobs didn't require hours away from work. But poker definitely does so more than most jobs.
I am interested in seeing a ranking of off-the-clock hours requirement for poker vs other jobs.

Curious : how many non-poker jobs have you had?
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Old 08-04-2017, 05:47 PM   #19477
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I am interested in seeing a ranking of off-the-clock hours requirement for poker vs other jobs.

Curious : how many non-poker jobs have you had?
A summer bank internship. Another bank job I quit and a part time job serving in a restaurant during school.
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Old 08-04-2017, 10:02 PM   #19478
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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I am interested in seeing a ranking of off-the-clock hours requirement for poker vs other jobs.

Curious : how many non-poker jobs have you had?
I don't think live poker has much in the way of off-the-clock hours?
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Old 08-04-2017, 10:21 PM   #19479
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I don't think live poker has much in the way of off-the-clock hours?
Assuming you really mean "off-the-table" hours ... if you want to get better it does.
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Old 08-04-2017, 10:25 PM   #19480
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Assuming you really mean "off-the-table" hours ... if you want to get better it does.
For online poker yeah absolutely.
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Old 08-04-2017, 10:46 PM   #19481
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For online poker yeah absolutely.
Why wouldn't you need/want to do the same thing to get better live?

Maybe if you're content to just play $1/2 against droolers for marginal winnings you can just go play. But if you want t move up or increase your WR you should do some off the table work.
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Old 08-04-2017, 11:06 PM   #19482
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Assuming you really mean "off-the-table" hours ... if you want to get better it does.
This is true for most career paths
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Old 08-05-2017, 08:39 AM   #19483
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

ugh so much pie in the sky its painful

2 facts - most small biznesses fail and most people aspiring to be poker pros fail

Most fail at poker for a number of reasons
1 lazy
2 not enough hours logged at the table
3 overestimate their skillz

It is not rocket science but it takes a very strong work ethic/ discipline to make it as a 2/5 grinder. Over the years I have seen a mere handful with this ethic. I cant tell you how many I have seen have a "good week" and take the rest of the month off. This is one of the main problems with poker...it is never ending (kind of like the post office).

Poker as a job is extremely boring, lonely, frustrating, depressing

I have to imagine these are the reasons y so many struggle with hours. I no longer put in the full time volume - but I did it for years. I was highly motivated. I had a mortgage and a kid to support.

I imagine when you are 20 something and dicking around with 50 roommates you dont feel that urgency - and are then pretty much destined for failure
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Old 08-06-2017, 11:08 AM   #19484
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Excellent post squid. I think another reason it's so hard in poker is because there's no room in the middle. Work for any corporation, and there are positions you can ride out for years doing very little and still get a paycheck. There's really no other ecomomy like poker. There are no partnerships on the felt...once you sit down your best friend will take your entire roll without mercy.

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Old 08-06-2017, 01:29 PM   #19485
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Excellent post squid. I think another reason it's so hard in poker is because there's no room in the middle. Work for any corporation, and there are positions you can ride out for years doing very little and still get a paycheck. There's really no other ecomomy like poker. There are no partnerships on the felt...once you sit down your best friend will take your entire roll without mercy.

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This is very true as well. Plenty of days I go into work and don't feel like working. I put in a C or D effort. I still get paid the same $X that pay cycle.

In poker if you bring your D game, not only do you not get paid the same, but you will most likely lose a lot of money.
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Old 08-06-2017, 02:07 PM   #19486
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This is very true as well. Plenty of days I go into work and don't feel like working. I put in a C or D effort. I still get paid the same $X that pay cycle.

In poker if you bring your D game, not only do you not get paid the same, but you will most likely lose a lot of money.
Exactly this. I have a job that I'm paid well to do, but I'm also very autonomous and have little to no oversight. All that counts are the results, and my bosses dgaf if it takes me 2 hours our 80. There are days where I'm just not up to bringing my A game, but my base salary still gets paid.

Autonomy is the double-edged sword that the vast majority of early 20-something 'pros' don't posses the maturity or work ethic to handle. Most of us don't develop it until we have external motivating factors that drive us, such as mortgage/family dependencies like squid mentioned earlier. Poker offers unparalleled autonomy, but none of the security.

I honestly think this is the biggest factor on why my hourly is better as a rec player rather than a grinder. I only play when I want to...there are no external factors driving me to get in time on the felt. Poker gets to be my escape from the daily grind, and not the source of it.
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Old 08-06-2017, 03:25 PM   #19487
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Yea, the ability to game select as a rec player and simply walk away if the table is ****ty or you're not feeling 100% into it really helps your hourly win rate, even if if hurts your monthly or yearly winrate.
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Old 08-06-2017, 04:46 PM   #19488
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Yea, the ability to game select as a rec player and simply walk away if the table is ****ty or you're not feeling 100% into it really helps your hourly win rate, even if if hurts your monthly or yearly winrate.

Non-rec players can do the same thing.
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Old 08-06-2017, 05:21 PM   #19489
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Non-rec players can do the same thing.
To some extent. But if you're making your living off playing poker you *need* to get volume in. So unless your market sufficiently large to always have a "good" game to (try to) hop into you're going to get stuck grinding hours in worse games.
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Old 08-06-2017, 05:53 PM   #19490
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Non-rec players can do the same thing.
Yeah the answer to that is yes but not really
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Old 08-06-2017, 08:42 PM   #19491
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Non-rec players can do the same thing.
I disagree. You can play at times and places where the games are usually good but as a rec player you can decide to only play when you WANT to play. As a full time player there's gonna be times (and lots of them imo) when you don't really want to play, but you need to get volume. And trust me, it's hard to play your A game when you really don't want to be there.
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Old 08-06-2017, 08:44 PM   #19492
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Hmm, idk what you guys are talking about but I consider making $$$ a huge incentive to go play, I don't need a family to create that incentive, my financial stability and future is enough incentive.

I can't remember the last time I've went out with friends on a Friday night. I still get invited all the time, but it's like "well, it's 'costing' me ~500-1000 on average plus however much I spend...." and it's incredibly hard to justify forgoing that opportunity cost.
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Old 08-06-2017, 08:47 PM   #19493
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But it's more plausible that after that 1500 hour stretch in the deepest darkest throes of spewing and tilting that I just flipped a switch and decided to play my A-game and win at >$30/hr again?

The fallacy of 2p2 is "if it hasn't happened to me then it isn't possible." I've grinded more hours than 99% of the posters here. Your skepticism and platitudes have no bearing on my reality.

You can choose to believe whatever you want. I am merely relaying my experiences which at this point have covered the entire lifecycle of a poker run: running good, sun running, running terrible, breaking even win/lose/win/lose for months and finally at a point of running around average lately.
Context is important though. If you aren't a very strong player then the impact of running terrible is going to be greatly magnified and can apparently even result in losing 19 out of 20 sessions.

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Can't believe that is your smallest downswing. After running $68/hour for 400 hours I went into a $16,000+ downswing losing 19 of my last 20 sessions at 2/5. Needless to say it has ****ed with my psyche.
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Old 08-06-2017, 08:57 PM   #19494
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troll on playa
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Old 08-06-2017, 09:16 PM   #19495
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by YGOchamp View Post
Hmm, idk what you guys are talking about but I consider making $$$ a huge incentive to go play, I don't need a family to create that incentive, my financial stability and future is enough incentive.

I can't remember the last time I've went out with friends on a Friday night. I still get invited all the time, but it's like "well, it's 'costing' me ~500-1000 on average plus however much I spend...." and it's incredibly hard to justify forgoing that opportunity cost.
Been checking out Bravo lately for Vegas rooms. Seems like you can get in a $2-5 game pretty easy lat 6:00 AM especially on the weekends. Not sure about selection at $5-10 and above. When I was playing a lot I would regularly get up very early on the weekends and play. Tables had stuck players trying to get even very often. Frequently tables were a little short. As long as the room cuts you a brake on the rake when table is short not a bad way to go. Play at 6:00 AM and quit in the early afternoon after getting the hours in then have the rest of the day to do whatever.
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Old 08-06-2017, 09:19 PM   #19496
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Been checking out Bravo lately for Vegas rooms. Seems like you can get in a $2-5 game pretty easy lat 6:00 AM especially on the weekends. Not sure about selection at $5-10 and above. When I was playing a lot I would regularly get up very early on the weekends and play. Tables had stuck players trying to get even very often. Frequently tables were a little short. As long as the room cuts you a brake on the rake when table is short not a bad way to go. Play at 6:00 AM and quit in the early afternoon after getting the hours in then have the rest of the day to do whatever.
I used to do this on Sunday mornings at my regular card room. +++++EV, no doubt.
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Old 08-06-2017, 10:26 PM   #19497
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

I'm a nit so I care about these things

do you guys put high hand $winnings in your records?
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Old 08-06-2017, 10:30 PM   #19498
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Yeah, I put small promos in, on the "I paid the promo drop, and counted that as part of my expenses, so the rebate should count." I've never hit a BBJ, but I probably wouldn't put that in, just as it would skew the results so much as to be meaningless.
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Old 08-06-2017, 10:34 PM   #19499
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I'm a nit so I care about these things

do you guys put high hand $winnings in your records?
I do in a category separate from regular hourly.

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Old 08-06-2017, 11:15 PM   #19500
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Been checking out Bravo lately for Vegas rooms. Seems like you can get in a $2-5 game pretty easy lat 6:00 AM especially on the weekends. Not sure about selection at $5-10 and above. When I was playing a lot I would regularly get up very early on the weekends and play. Tables had stuck players trying to get even very often. Frequently tables were a little short. As long as the room cuts you a brake on the rake when table is short not a bad way to go. Play at 6:00 AM and quit in the early afternoon after getting the hours in then have the rest of the day to do whatever.
I like your thinking. Although, the optimal time is even earlier in the day. In general the best time to show up to a busy 24hr poker room is sometime after midnight, perhaps after 2am depending on the location and day of the week. If you do that then you will spend many more hours in the conditions that you described playing with players that are stuck, tired, and potentially drunk.
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