If you're looking for justification to play higher, you're not going to get any from a small sample size.

If not, what are you looking for in your post?

I'm going to skip the whole small sample size bit and say that 30 hours is far too small to get an idea of win rate.

However 12/hr at 1/3 is a respectable rate that can be improved upon.

I think the absolute max the best 1/3 players can beat a 1/3 for is 25/hr depending on rake, buy in structure and player pool.


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I've seen people beat 1/3 for $30 an hour playing just solid TAG, with a flat rake drop and short effective stacks. Mix in a few thin moves in +EV spots, exploiting scared money, etc. and I think a very very good 1/3 player can make up to $40 an hour. If it plays deep, that could easily go up to $50.

Aesah once theorized that 1/3 has the highest potential winrate (in terms of bb/hr) because it's the highest level at which one can get away with making gigantic open-raises. I disagree because so many people at 1/3 buy in short, but a deep 1/3 game with a generous rake structure? I wouldn't doubt it.

I think that was a super long time ago when I had zero experience playing higher and just assumed people were good

Agreed, theres a couple ppl in my area beating 1/2nl for 16-19bbs/hr and they have shown me 1k+ hour samples. Didn't think it was possible with the rake myself but I never put in the volume to really know.

Games are very good here though.

Actually I think you'd been playing 5/10 for a while and then went down to 1/2 because that was what was available or something, and you were like "holy **** these people are BAAAAD."

I challenge anyone to post an unfabricated graph/stats of 30+/hr over 1k hours at 1/2 where the rake is somewhere around 5+1.

Skepticism aside, I'm legitimately interested.

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I'm actually interested too. I've seen people who make $75 an hour at 2/5, but not that.

664 hours of 4+1. Was around $40/hr before recent downswing:

Last night had a pretty sick run short stacking. First I lost AIPF AK vs AJ for 60bbs at 2/5. Then I was called to 5/10 and lost AK vs KQ AIPF (started hand with 60bbs). I pulled out $1000 to buy in full but then realized I still had $140ish left after losing the pot so I decided to save my other buyin. I then doubled up vs the same guy KJ vs Jx, and in less than 10 minutes was back to my $600 starting stack after 3betting AIPF a couple times and taking down dead money. I then ran that up to $2300 within 45 minutes. On my last hand I limp folded 77 but had I called I would have been all in 3 ways on a 7 high flop and my stack would have been $6k. Would have been epic $140 to $6k in less than an hour, but my fold was the correct decision bleh.

buy in full

Not quite, but.... (If you look close at the graph though, you can certainly deduce that the last 1k hours is most surely 30+)

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how are you guys winning at such a big clip at 1/2 and 1/3 and not moving up?

Moving up to what?

A single $2/5 game with a small player pool of grinders?

In some places it's not worth it to "move up".

I experienced this recently in my only local room. Tried the 2/5 game for 4 sessions. Won a modest amount and concluded that it's just not worth it. Plus my 1/2 games are 300 max or up to the biggest stack. Often just as much money on the table as normal 2/5 games.

sure, if you're a rec player and you're just playing for enjoyment and some extra money (although that describes me and for my enjoyment I want to continue to grow and improve and that means challenging myself to beat better villains in a bigger game)

but if you're playing FT, then you're limiting your growth and earning potential by staying in a small game. realise being a big fish in a small pond makes you feel great and may be easy money but are you really going to be happy beating 1/2 for $30 an hour in two, four and ten years time?

agree that if you're a pro or aspiring pro you either need to become the best player in a less than soft game or move to a place with a bigger player pool at higher levels than 1/2.

I'm just an estimated 500hr/yr player who wants to make some side income so I'm happy at 1/2. Will likely never live anywhere near a major poker room so time spent becoming a supreme poker crusher would likely be a waste. Plus I already did that with LHE, and we know how that turned out, lol.

I don't actually (know how limit turned out for you) but fair enough re your objectives for playing.

I certainly had some growing pains 'moving up' to 5/5 which is the biggest hold em game in my room and is sometimes infested with pro players better than me and I still play the 3/3 when 5/5 looks nasty. I think I'm finally conditioned to the bigger game now, with like 170 hours of 5/5 over 18 months (I play 300 ish hours annually

It's definitely more enjoyable poker though and I enjoy the challenge far more than at 1/2

I imagine the limit Holdem game dried up. Just a guess.

You're doing it wrong

doing what wrong, giving advice on moving up from 1/2?

There really are not many bigger games around here. They play 2/5 at casino 1 1/4 hours away on friday night but that's about it. I guess I am just ok with low stress $25 an hour.... I am hoping to hit Florida this winter and maybe play higher if things go well. ....to each his own I guess.

ive doing some rough calculations and estimated that i'm beating the game for around 8bb/hour, which seems pretty standard by this thread.

i'm just wondering though, because 8bb/hr translates to around 24+bb/100hands, doesn't that usually mean you're on a massive heater?

i mean i can only beat 6max 5c/10c online for about 4bb/100

In live poker the edge of a good player is massive compared to online tagfests

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Live games play much bigger than online games. Your villains are looser, preflop bets/raises are bigger, and the max buy in will usually be 150-200bb rather than 100.

If you're solid and you play a deep FR game against terrible loose players online, I guarantee you your winrate will be much greater than 20bb/100. The problem is those games don't really exist.